[jillybean]

---

If I bid 2♥ here I may never have the opportunity to show the club suit.
I like a system where 2♣/1M is clubs or balanced , gf. Is it playable to
change this to clubs, balanced or 55 clubs and another suit?
I suppose if we change this then 2425 type hands become difficult
to bid. Any thoughts?

[mike777]

2h wtp?

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2012-January-09, 23:41, said:

2h wtp?

3♦

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2012-January-09, 23:41, said:

3♦

4nt quant

pretty minumum for my bid.

pard should not bid on without alot.

pard knows misfit.

[fromageGB]

2♥
There are the 2 schools of thought on opener's rebid after a 2/1. Does he bid higher than 2 of his major without extras? If you play that a 2♠ rebid does not show additional spade length, and is the default rebid with no significant extra strength, then you would rebid 2NT on many hands to let him bid his shape, but here of course you rebid 3♣ to show your shape. I can't see a problem with that.

Of course the 2♠ rebid denies extra strength, so I would not fear missing slam if no good ♥/♣ fit came to light. So if he rebids 3♦ over 3♣ you can 3NT, or raise 3♠ to game.
On the other hand, if he bypasses 2♠ he is showing additional strength, so now you will be slamming.

Maybe the hand is a problem if you play a 2♠ rebid shows extra length, and you bid above it without additional strength, but I have no experience of that school of thought. Maybe you need to change schools.

[aguahombre]

1S-2H
3D-? This seems to be the focus of the problem hand. Probably not a great idea to revise your 2C/1M structure to take this hand into account; rather just use your judgement and rebid the number of NT which feels O.K. to you (3NT or 4NT).

Opener's "high reverse", if it indeed shows extra values (it should), doesn't necessarily show a whole lot of extra strength; and perhaps the "strength" is in extra distribution. I would dog it with 3NT, seeing transportation problems and other negative issues despite the whole two points more than already shown.

Partner is not barred from bidding again after 3NT.

[fromageGB]

I confess I disagree with Mr Waterman here, because if "extra distribution" is held equivalent to "extra strength", then it means nothing when the bidding goes 1♠ 2♥ 3♦. If "extra strength" is defined as HCP, then there is a world of a difference between 1♠ 2♥ 3♦ and 1♠ 2♥ 2♠ 2NT 3♦. Knowledge of the additional HCP makes it easier to bid NT at the correct level when there is no fit.

My preferred partnership has 12-14 as "normal", and 15/16 as "extras". Maybe shade that by a point if you want to, but it helps when in slam zone.

Incidentally, FWIW, 17+ we treat as "normal", and then when the bidding stops at game you come out of the woodwork and bid further (4♣ after a non-fit eventual 3NT acts as a relay). Knowing the strength as well as shape makes it easier for me, as I am not always able to make the correct judgement otherwise.

[jillybean]

We do play that a high reverse shows extras, K+. My concern is that if partner rebids 3♦ and I want to show clubs, I have to show them at the 4 level. We have the points so maybe this is a non problem after all.

[Phil]

jillybean, on 2012-January-09, 23:39, said:

Is it playable to change this to clubs, balanced or 55 clubs and another suit?
I suppose if we change this then 2425 type hands become difficult
to bid. Any thoughts?

If you play some sort of artificial force like 2♣, you don't really care what it shows, because in most continuations, you are simply relaying at low levels to find out what partner's hand is. At some point, you can set trump and elicit cue bids.

If 2♣ is simply 'clubs' or balanced, it would seem to be a poor choice on this hand.

[jillybean]

Phil, on 2012-January-12, 09:44, said:

If you play some sort of artificial force like 2♣, you don't really care what it shows, because in most continuations, you are simply relaying at low levels to find out what partner's hand is. At some point, you can set trump and elicit cue bids.

If 2♣ is simply 'clubs' or balanced, it would seem to be a poor choice on this hand.

Exactly, 2♣ is simply 'clubs' or balanced so changing our 2♣ bid to artificial gf, would cater for hands like this (2515) but what, if anything, is the down side?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

With 2C! as an artificial GF , how do you ever show partner you have 5 cards ♥ without implying you have a 5/6 ( ♥ / ♣ ) .

[neilkaz]

OK good that you play that 1♠-2♥-3♦ shows extra values and this does make showing ♣ a problem since you have to bid 4♣ but even though opener has extras, this hand is likely missfit and I think to bid 4♣ you should also have something extra.

Discuss these sequences with PD and agree on what further bids by opener might show and what 4nt is.

[Phil]

jillybean, on 2012-January-12, 09:53, said:

Exactly, 2♣ is simply 'clubs' or balanced so changing our 2♣ bid to artificial gf, would cater for hands like this (2515) but what, if anything, is the down side?

You might want to ask others this question, but in general whenever you introduce a method like this the downsides are:

1. It comes at a huge memory drain, which can affect other sectors of your game. You need to spend a lot of time practicing sequences that seldom come up. You need to have a strong knowledge of the underlying logic of what it means when partner relays, and what the significance is when partner breaks a relay. One misstep in 20 hands negates the long term benefits of the bids. Relayers will say this actually simplifies bidding, and that may be true after you've been playing the methods for five years.

2. Over-describing one hand is a double-edged sword. Partner, as well as the opponents get to listen in about one hand being described. If its the hand that is about to be dummy, great, otherwise you might as well put declarer's hand on the table.

3. You give the opponents opportunities to make lead directing doubles (and passes).

Honestly, I'd work on other things.

[cherdano]

jillybean, on 2012-January-12, 09:53, said:

Exactly, 2♣ is simply 'clubs' or balanced so changing our 2♣ bid to artificial gf, would cater for hands like this (2515) but what, if anything, is the down side?

There isn't enough space for all that over 2♣. If 2♣ is balanced, you want opener to describe his hand. But if opener does that, there is no room for responder to show this 5-card side suit. I mean, what do you want to do over 1S 2C 3C?

There are worse things than not being able to show a 5-card minor in an auction where partner has shown two different suits. If you bid 3N or jump to 4N over 1S 2H 3D as quantitative, opener can still bid out his shape with 4C or 5C if he is 5143, so you wouldn't ever be missing a club fit for slam purposes.

[kenrexford]

The 1♠-2♥-3♦ sequence is the death sequence. Because of this, for a while I thought about incorporating a 2♦ opening by Opener to pre-solve the problem, at least somewhat. This has some additional benefits.

With 5 and 4-5♦, intermediate (10-15 or so), open 2♦. This makes 1♠-2♥-3♦ rare, and it shows extras. Also, it allows 1♠-1NT-2♦ to operate as a two-way bid (weak majors or strong with spades-diamonds), which allows 1♠-1NT-2♥ to show tweener values (14-15 or so). This also allows 1♠-2♣-♥ to promise 5-5 (with 5-4 or some 6-4, bid 2♦ as waiting).

[awm]

The problem is that partner may rebid 2♠ or 2NT or 3♣ over 2♣. Over any of these, if you bid 3♥ next does that show five hearts? I wouldn't think so.

Over 2♠/2NT it is very nice to be able to bid 3♥ with 4♥-6♣ or even 4♥-5♣. Sure, you will not have a heart fit, but it will help a lot for partner to figure out if he has enough in diamonds to bid 3NT, as well as evaluating how nice his hand looks for a possible club slam. Over opener's 3♣ it's not even clear that 3♥ shows hearts -- it might be a stopper for 3NT or a cuebid looking for a club slam.

If you are going to require that 3♥ in all those auctions shows a 5/5 hand, then you are actually losing quite a bit in your ability to show other hand types. Even if it does show five hearts, your auction of 1♠-2♣-2NT-3♥ is awkward. If opener bids 4♣, is that a cue for hearts or suggesting to play in clubs? If opener bids 3♠, is that a cue for hearts or suggesting doubt about his diamond holding for 3NT? Note that these problems don't exit in 1♠-2♥-2NT or 1♠-2♥-3♥ because opener's degree of heart fit is known right away.

Anyway, after 1♠-2♥-3♦ on the actual hand you can easily afford to bid 4♣. You have 16 opposite a partner who has shown extras. If you were slightly weaker you could bid 3NT or 4NT, and if opener has the stuff to bid on he will introduce his 3-card club suit (if any) on the way. The odds of a club fit here really aren't that good anyway (opener can be 5/5 or 6/4 or 5242).

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Just playing with an idea here..... not advocating it:

1S - 2C! ( GF )
2D - 2H! ( 4 or 5h )
2S! ( asks) - ??
..................... 2NT = 4h/5+c
.....................  3C = 5h/5c
.....................  3H = 5h/6c