[the hog]

I noticed with interest the use of this gadget in the Vanderbilt by Grue, of the winning Amolis team.
(2H) 4D to show a good hand with long Spades.
I assume that (2S) 4C whould show a good hand with H.
Does anyone know anything more about this convention?

[olien]

(2M)-3M is michaels
(2M)-4C is both minors, NF
(2M)-4D is very strong jump in other major
(2M)-4M is very strong both minors

[the hog]

Thanks Olien.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

olien, on 2012-March-26, 22:39, said:

(2M)-3M is michaels
(2M)-4C is both minors, NF
(2M)-4D is very strong jump in other major
(2M)-4M is very strong both minors

Then they have given up (2M) - 3M = asking for an M-stop for 3NT.
Also, it appears they have given up the other 2-suited Leaping Michaels where 4m!-jump = that suit and the other Major.

[olien]

Yes, they've given up 3M as the stopper ask. And the leaping michaels hands go via michaels. Joe swears by this structure.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

olien, on 2012-March-30, 08:34, said:

Joe swears by this structure.

Who's Joe ? ( I find no fault in your structure... it's just different from the "norm" ) .

[mgoetze]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-March-30, 11:08, said:

Who's Joe ?

the hog, on 2012-March-26, 19:54, said:

I noticed with interest the use of this gadget in the Vanderbilt by Grue, of the winning Amolis team.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

mgoetze, on 2012-March-30, 11:09, said:

Joe Grue
Thanks... Michael

[JLOGIC]

As Owen says (I play this with Joe also). Not a huge fan of it.

[Avoidance]

So pluses 1)Have a way to make a M suit slam try with a strong H suit over 2S (could use 4H over 2H anyway)
2)Can show both m s in one bid below 4 of opponents' M
3)3 level m overcalls more likely to deliver a six card suit
4)Can play in 3NT opposite 5OM+/5m+
5)Have more ways to show a good m two suiter so can be more accurate as to strength

minuses 1)Can't show both 5+/5+ suits with 5M+ in one bid. Makes it harder for partner to judge over a raise
of the weak two to game
2)With a big(usually solid) m suit you have to start with a dbl rather than a cue & may have to correct
partner's 4M bid to 5m

[MickyB]

How's this for an idea -

cue = minors
4C = M+♦
4D = M+♣
4H over 2H = strong 4S bid

[JLOGIC]

Downside of that is that now to michaels you have to force to game and cant stop in 3S/4m if that is a priority for you. You also lose partners ability last train over the strong 4M bid.

Those costs are at the ability to show your minor directly when you are bidding michaels, so it just depends on what your priorities are.

Personally over 2H I like 3H as michaels and 4m as leaping michaels. I don't really care about minors not strong enough to force to the 5 level that much.

[MickyB]

JLOGIC, on 2012-March-30, 14:31, said:

Downside of that is that now to michaels you have to force to game and cant stop in 3S/4m if that is a priority for you. You also lose partners ability last train over the strong 4M bid.

Those costs are at the ability to show your minor directly when you are bidding michaels, so it just depends on what your priorities are.

Personally over 2H I like 3H as michaels and 4m as leaping michaels. I don't really care about minors not strong enough to force to the 5 level that much.

So playing Michaels and LM, how do you split the hands between the two bids? How do you play over 2S?

Over here it's standard to play LM as forcing and cue as stopper ask, in which case switching 4C and 4D must be an improvement.

[JLOGIC]

MickyB, on 2012-March-30, 14:42, said:

Over here it's standard to play LM as forcing and cue as stopper ask

That is also standard here fwiw, to the point that I would assume it undiscussed with a random expert partner.

Personally I feel that 2 michaels bids are useful because people are bidding leaping michaels too light in order to get their hand off their chest, which might work fine but the range becomes too wide, you are forcing too high on marginal hands and when you have a real hand your slam bidding will def suffer.

I just play 3H as non game forcing (obv since you can stop in 3S or 4m). True, partner doesn't know my minor, and it's possible we miss a big fit there, but I have not been burned by this. Usually if they compete to 4H, partner will have either a spade fit, or length in both minors (since he won't have tremendous heart length). In either case, he will be well placed to compete knowing just that I have spades and a minor. True, sometimes might be like 2362 and we have a 6-6 diamond fit, or more likely his honors are all located in one minor and knowing my minor would help, but it's not that likely. On a good day you get to play 3N.

Methods with no bid for the stopper ask hand type can overwhelm 1 suited minor hand types since they must start with double and sometimes that is obv unpalatable.

[JLOGIC]

Over 2S I prefer to play 3S stopper ask and 4m leaping michaels. Much more important for partner to know your minor when he is going to be competing over 4S than over 4H (where he will often just bid 4S with a spade fit), and also less gain in playing 3M as michaels since over hearts you can stop in 3S on misfit type hands (LHO is not always bidding 4H!), but over spades you are at the 4 level anyways.

But like I said I have been playing a fair amount with Joe recently and I play his methods with him. I really don't care that much and playing some of his stuff sometimes is good for partnership

[the hog]

JLOGIC, on 2012-March-30, 12:07, said:

As Owen says (I play this with Joe also). Not a huge fan of it.

Any reasons in particular?

edited - sorry, answered already.

[Dark Widow]

Is there something to be said for giving up the natural 3♠ call over a 2♥ opening in order to have multiple levels for both spade 1-suiters and 2-suiters without giving up the stopper ask? So 3♥ stopper ask, 3♠ spades and a minor (limited), 4♣/4♦ spades and the minor (GF), 4♥ spades (strong), 4NT clubs and diamonds (GF).

[FrancesHinden]

You can use the 3♥ stopper ask with a good spade hand anyway if you want. Pull 3NT (or anything else) by partner to 4♠ and he will get the message.