[bluecalm]

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Casual partnership. No special agreements.
Your bid ?

EDIT: it's matchpoints

[bluecalm]

Btw I need that as a panel for UI problem so please vote even if you are not interested in discussing this position

[broze]

4♠

EDIT: Oops, missed the fact that it was MPs. In this case I would make a 3NT probe with 3♥ or 3♦. I don't care much for 4♣ - it seems to me that if you're going to bid 4 you may as well bid 5. Though perhaps that's still my IMP brain talking.

[mikeh]

4♣

At this heat, we could have a lot fewer values. Qxxxx xx Kxx Kxx is enough for game, and why would he bid more than 3♣ with that (or with quite a bit more than that)?

The fact that it is mps militates slightly in favour of passing, but the game bonus helps your mp score as well

Admittedly, this general try won't help him make the right decision all the time, but we have too much hope for game to pass and no other descriptive call available. Forcing to game is just too much of a gamble.

Btw, I realize that in the UI situation, worrying about the choice of 2N is meaningless, but I prefer 2♣, intending to balance with 4N if they reach 4♠.

[Phil]

Some gentle move is warranted. 4♣ looks right and I think 3♥ could get us to a real nice 3N.

4♠ is way too much with this. If I had two aces as partner I'd be thinking about 7, yet 6 probably won't make.

[ArtK78]

Too much to pass, too little to force to game.

4♣ seems just right.

[aguahombre]

Agree with Mikeh. Gotta bid again after perpetrating 2NT at these colors.

A heart bid might be suggested by UI/MI about the nature of 2NT, so any of the other poll options---though not advisable, seem lawful. OTOH, if the UI was tempo, passing is not logical.

[bluecalm]

The problem is rather untypical.
I was W and I asked about 2NT (it was alerted) when it was my turn. It was explained as "club preempt". I passed and 2NT bidder bid 3H which was raised to 4. I called TD because I felt 4H was difficult to reach without UI. TD basically ignored me
Full hand:

http://www.pzbs.pl/w.../ldgppp006.html

[mikeh]

bluecalm, on 2012-April-05, 10:08, said:

The problem is rather untypical.
I was W and I asked about 2NT (it was alerted) when it was my turn. It was explained as "club preempt". I passed and 2NT bidder bid 3H which was raised to 4. I called TD because I felt 4H was difficult to reach without UI. TD basically ignored me
Full hand:

http://www.pzbs.pl/w.../ldgppp006.html

The first important question, imo, was whether the alert was correct. If not...if the partnership agreement was that 2N was unusual, then I think the director was wrong.

If, however, the alert and explanation were correct, then we get into whether N had planned his action (2N was never going to be passed, and now 3♥ seems sort of self-explanatory, doesn't it?) or whether he had forgotten the agreement and had been 'alerted' to his error by the alert

[Cyberyeti]

I'd bid 3♥ normally, but not with the UI situation as there are LAs.

Why ?

The only sniff of game opposite xxxx, xxx, xxx, Kxx is in hearts, and particularly at MPs it may be important to play in hearts (add the K♦ and 4♥ outscores 5♣ even if both make).

[bluecalm]

Quote

The only sniff of game opposite xxxx, xxx, xxx, Kxx is in hearts, and particularly at MPs it may be important to play in hearts (add the K♦ and 4♥ outscores 5♣ even if both make).

Partner would bid 3H with that hand.

[Cyberyeti]

bluecalm, on 2012-April-05, 12:32, said:

Partner would bid 3H with that hand.

Interesting, I had this discussion with partner recently and he wasn't sure what he'd bid with 3-3 with better holding in the minor or 2-2 similar, but the same applies to xxxxx, xx, Jxx, Kxx or xxxx, xxx, Kx, Kxxx.

[S2000magic]

I'd be inclined to bid 4♥: if partner has as little as 2 small hearts and the ♣K or ♦K we'll make game (barring a 5-1 heart split). That doesn't seem too far a stretch: with 8 hearts out his fair share is 2-2/3, and even if his only honor is, say, the ♠A we still make it if the opening lead is a spade (not everyone leads partner's minor suit). Furthermore, I wouldn't expect partner to raise 3♥ to 4♥ holding only 2 small hearts and the ♣K or ♦K .

[lalldonn]

S2000magic, on 2012-April-05, 15:56, said:

I'd be inclined to bid 4♥: if partner has as little as 2 small hearts and the ♣K or ♦K we'll make game (barring a 5-1 heart split). That doesn't seem too far a stretch: with 8 hearts out his fair share is 2-2/3, and even if his only honor is, say, the ♠A we still make it if the opening lead is a spade (not everyone leads partner's minor suit). Furthermore, I wouldn't expect partner to raise 3♥ to 4♥ holding only 2 small hearts and the ♣K or ♦K .

You are misanalyzing. 3 losers in hearts is not the same as game in hearts. Let's say hearts are 4-2 and partner has the club king. They will lead spades or diamonds until you ruff. You draw trumps in 4 rounds. And then.... you concede the rest? If he has the king of diamonds it's even worse. In your efforts to get the clubs set up you will get tapped out in spades even if hearts are 3-3!

In addition, you can't say partner's average heart length is 2.67 because we showed hearts and clubs and he didn't bid hearts. He will never, or at best rarely, have 3 or more hearts. Since he won't have more than 2 his average length is less than 2 and he will very often have just 1 or even 0. 4♥ on this hand is a massive overbid. I would bid 4♣. 3♥ is interesting and understandable, but rather dispicible with the UI.

[S2000magic]

lalldonn, on 2012-April-05, 16:16, said:

You are misanalyzing.

Wouldn't be the first time.

[nige1]

bluecalm asks "Casual partnership. No special agreements. Your bid ? it's matchpoints

IMO 3♦ = 10, 3♠ = 9,, 4♣ = 8, 3♥ = 7, 4♥ = 6
IMO, 3♥ should normally show longer ♥ than ♣ but I can understand a player making an exception on this hand.

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bluecalm, on 2012-April-05, 10:08, said:

The problem is rather untypical. I was W and I asked about 2NT (it was alerted) when it was my turn. It was explained as "club preempt". I passed and 2NT bidder bid 3H which was raised to 4. I called TD because I felt 4H was difficult to reach without UI. TD basically ignored me
Full hand:

http://www.pzbs.pl/w.../ldgppp006.html

From East's "♣ pre-empt " explanation it seems that East misunderstood West's intended meaning for 3♣. The explanation is UI to West. West should try to avoid bids like 3♥ that would correct East's misconceptions about his shape and strength. Here, for example, 4♣ seems like a logical alternative. IMO, West's suspected use of UI appears to have damaged N-S, so the director should adjust.

This post has been edited by nige1: 2012-April-06, 18:47

[Statto]

I'd like to bid 3♠. It certainly shows the "good" type of hand, and I think should be 1st round control. Why waste space with 4♠? But if I'm showing controls I should bid 3♥.

[mike777]

just wonder if starting with 2c not 2nt might work better


granted 2c over 1d can be pretty wide...extremely wide range.