[karlson]

Assign the blame for not getting to spades at matchpoints:

---

[aguahombre]

I confess. Would also have chosen double, rather than 2S. Even though my partner will usually hold 5 spades, I also confess to rebidding diamonds and then diamonds again on this hand. A double of 3 clubs here would be nice if it showed just what I want it to show, when I want to show this 3-5-5-0 hand; but, it doesn't.

Edit: I also confess that I forgot North could remove 2D to 2H, imply 5S, and fix it; thanks, Mikeh (below).

[mikeh]

Bridge bidding is an imprecise science, especially in competitive auctions.

S's overcall is hardly classic, yet 1♥ seems preferable to Pass and the other alternative (2N) seems misguided, so 1♥ is ok...no blame so far.

N has a useful hand, but QJ9xx in spades and only 10 hcp with indifferent heart tolerance suggests that 2♠ is too much...surely that has to be forcing, and that seems wrong. Passing is just not enough, so the double seems like the best of what appear to be imperfect options, akin to S's situation.

2♦ is clear. Sure, we are turning down what rates to be a 4=3 spade fit and may be a 5=3 fit, but we might end up in a 4=3 with a side 9 or 10 card diamond fit, and this may play very badly....130 beats 110, and 150 beats 140, and the plus we are assured of in diamonds beats all minus scores. Mps sometimes requires that we do non-bridge actions, but surely not to this extent?

I think N erred in passing 2♦. While S will usually hold 4♦, because he won't be 6=3 reds, and the opps have bid and raised clubs, there will be times when S has only 3 diamonds. That possibility, along with the very real risk that he is 5=4 reds, makes passing 2♦ an error.


N could have chosen either 2♠ now or 2♥. I think that 2♠ should probably imply a 6 card suit, so I would choose 2♥, which can't be misconstrued in terms of heart length.

Now we swing back to S. I think, on this auction, there is a reason to bid 2♠, especially at mps.

So I think I assign the blame to N, who had more opportunities, as the auction unfolded, to get spades more clearly into the picture.

But, not a whole lot of 'blame' here, imo.

[lalldonn]

Who to blame for not finding spades. The guy with 5 spades and 3 diamonds who showed spades and diamonds, or the guy with 3 spades and 5 diamonds who bid diamonds twice after his partner showed spades and diamonds? Hmmmmmm

[ahydra]

I can't be sure the X specifically shows diamonds, or even for that matter spades. Depending on agreements one might simply play it as "cards".

I would have tried 2S over 2D to show the 5th spade. Is that forcing, I wonder? (Surely not when both opps have bid?)

Why does 2H over 2D imply 5 spades - couldn't North have a 4234 10-count? I'd certainly want to double 2C there to show some cards.

ahydra

[bluecalm]

Imo it's interesting problem.
It's common choice: to double or to bid 5card major directly when you can end up playing 5-1 support. Then after dbl partner often faces common dillema too: to bid 3card fit or not.

For example recently I had:
1H 2C 2D dbl
2H ?

How often should some 3-2-2-6 bid 2S here ?

[lalldonn]

ahydra, on 2012-April-05, 11:05, said:

I can't be sure the X specifically shows diamonds, or even for that matter spades. Depending on agreements one might simply play it as "cards".

Well, if no one ever showed spades then I will still blame the player with 5 spades.

[gnasher]

I think that:
- The double normally shows both spades and diamonds, doesn't promise five of either, but might have five of either. It can also be a hand that wants to make a forcing bid in a new suit.
- Double followed by 2♥ might be either 4243 or 5242.
- Double followed by 2♠ is forcing,
- A direct 2♠ is non-forcing
- North's hand is a 2♠ bid.

[aguahombre]

bluecalm, on 2012-April-05, 11:13, said:

For example recently I had:
1H 2C 2D dbl
2H ?

How often should some 3-2-2-6 bid 2S here ?

Consistently. The nature of the double in your example is different; it should show 5 spades and 2+clubs. Hands with only 4 spades which can't support clubs would tend to pass 2D, which is forcing for one round unless alerted as a NFB.

The double in this thread was a responsive double as an advance to an overcall and raise of opener's suit. It usually has support for both unbid suits.

[mikeh]

gnasher, on 2012-April-05, 11:47, said:

I think that:
-- Double followed by 2♠ is forcing,
- A direct 2♠ is non-forcing
- North's hand is a 2♠ bid.

I think that this is a non-standard approach, at least where I come from, if only by analogy to similar negative double sequences.....your approach is consistent with negative fee bids, which are played by relatively few players.

I would be interested to learn if there is any consensus amongst experts on this topic (I am generally more interested in learning that I am wrong than that I am right, since the former improves my game and the latter does nothing but feed an already healthy ego )

[mikeh]

edited to remove bizarre sort of double post

[Phil]

There are some hands with 5♠ + 3♦ where I would make a responsive double, but with partner having short clubs, it seems that 2♠ is a better shot. It won't always work - imagine 1=6=4=2 and 2♥ is the limit, but sometime you just have to bid your suit instead of playing paddy-cake with responsive doubles.

[mike777]

karlson, on 2012-April-05, 09:17, said:

Assign the blame for not getting to spades at matchpoints:

---

2s by north seems easy esp if nonforcing but decent hand....

1h nv overcall can be quite weakish.


this type of style lets both of you get in there and compete at MP with weakish overcalls....
the trade off is you might need to bid something else with a strong hand in fourth seat.

[MrAce]

I would bid 2♠ with N hand if thats nf but constructive. (which i like and play)

If it is forcing, then i would bid 2♠ over 2♦ with N hand as MikeH said.

[JLOGIC]

This is a good bread and butter type hand. My thoughts:

1H - This is the right bid and better than double. You would like to double with a hand this light to get everything into play but 3-5 in the majors is too big of a discrepancy. With 4540 I would double for sure but that is a big difference obviously.

X - For starters, I don't think it's right to play 2S as forcing, and I don't think that's standard. In fact, in BWS a new suit NF after an overcall is default, even though many people play the other way, but when RHO bids it is a lot different, because you now have double available which gives you more options with a forcing hand, it is less likely you have a forcing hand type (even though in the other thread I said people bid 1S p 1N with nothing, it is less likely to gain after an overcall since they've already gotten in so it will be harder to steal, and you are misleading your partner more in an auction that is likely to get competitive if you bid a new suit or raise, and most people with a weak hand and a good fit would make a preemptive jump anyways), and it is more likely that you need to get your suit in when both of them have bid. Passing with KQJxxx of spades just seems like it is a losing strategy, and if you follow mikeh's suggestion of starting with double with that hand, you not only don't get your suit in before possible preemption, but you mislead partner who would do a lot of bidding with a hand like x AQxxxx AKJx xx or something rightfully so. In general, bidding your suits is more important in competitive auctions, and having forcing bids is less important (you hardly ever have slams, etc). Brute forcing it and jumping to 4S or starting with double with a forcing hand with 5 spades seems much better.

All that said, I like the double a lot. I do not want to overstate spades (as I said, I would bid 2S with 6 spades and not a ton of HCP routinely and that is the hand type I expect partner to think I will often have for a 2S bid), I do not want to play spades opposite a stiff, I want to keep hearts in play as I have tolerance there. Yes, I might bid 2S with 5134 sometimes, but I wouldn't like it. I certainly don't like it with 5 mediocre spades and reasonable heart tolerance. I do risk sometimes missing a 5-3 spade fit but definitely not always (If they bid 3C and we have a 5-3 spade fit, partner will compete with X if he is 3541), but I will always find the safety of a 5-2 heart fit, I leave us better placed to find a 5-3 diamond fit and a 6-2 heart fit. There are many cases in competitive auctions where you can put all of your eggs into the "we might have a 5-3 fit" basket and go for it, or remain flexible, and in general I think it's better to worry about all of the other possibilities, especially in a situation like this where we can still back into spades. Even if partner is 3532, if they don't compete to 3C it will go X p 2D p 2H p 2S.

2D - obviously fine

Pass - What?! I hope we can all agree this is the only stupid action of the auction. You cannot pass 2D!!! All of the nice things I said about double go away if you pass 2D. I mean, for starters partner could be 3532. Or even 2533 (sometimes they raise clubs with 4 and opened with 3). Passing 2D really shows that this player missed the boat. Even if partner is 5-4 in the reds, we obv wanna play in our 5-2 rather than our 4-3 in general, and this is matchpoints! We also want to play our major suit fit! And if partner is 3541, he will correct 2H to 2S and we can find our spade fit. Passing was really bad.

After the pass, 3D stands out, your partner must have 4+ diamonds.

Let's back up the auction and assume that the N hand bid 2H. If RHO passed, south would bid 2S, as he knows his partner is 42 or 52 in the majors so it is right to correct as alluded to earlier. If RHO bids 3C then south has to me, a very interesting choice.

He could double, but if partner is 4234 he will probably pass most of the time thinking we are 3541. That rates to do poorly since we have little defense and no trumps. By the way, I don't think partners only shapes are 4234 and 52xx for this auction, he could also definitely be 4243 (he would pass with some 4243s but he would often bid 2H imo, majors rule and partner will often be 3532 for this auction esp if they don't compete to 3C, and if they do he can reopen 3D with nothing lost). So if south is just thinking of bidding 3S, that might work badly opposite 4243 whereas X and 3D would both work better. South could also take the safe route and just bid 3D. That's what I think I'd do, because honestly I wouldn't be thinking they had 10 clubs that often (and if partner is 5224, he would go back to 3H I hope, in which case I would go back to 3S miraculously backing into spades).

So, I would guess my auction would be (1C) 1H (2C) X (p) 2D (p) 2H (3C) 3D, even though the 3D bid is a loser on this hand. Note that if RHO had bid a direct 3C, south would have the same type of dilemma: Double to keep spades in play but risk a pass, or just bid 3D? Amusingly I think south MIGHT be more likely to double there, since it's less likely partner has a pass, but I still think he might bid 3D since he has little defense and overall values and hasn't limited his hand yet via a 2D bid. He also hasn't bid diamonds yet.

The other thing about the south hand is it might well play poorly in spades. You are getting tapped with the good trumps, while all of your entries are also tied to trumps. On a hand like this that often means you can't pull trumps, and you have terrible communications. Those things tip the balance to me to bidding diamonds with the south hand, it is possible diamonds will make and spades will go down if you are able to keep control in diamonds and run spades. QJ9 of spades is very useful on a hand like this.

Anyways, yeah north gets the blame for missing spades, but obviously the biggest loser of Xing instead of bidding 2S is when you have a 5-3 spade fit and miss it and it was right to play in it.

[JLOGIC]

Doubling and bidding 2S over 2D is completely bizarre to me. You guys are just banking everything on having a 5-2 spade fit and a 5-2 heart fit, and spades playing a trick better than hearts? Yeah QJ9 of spades is pretty good for a 5-2 obviously, but that is still a huge risk to just leave the known safety of a 5-2 heart fit and possible 6-2 heart fit for a 5-2 or 5-1 spade fit.

[mikeh]

MrAce, on 2012-April-05, 16:36, said:

I would bid 2♠ with N hand if thats nf but constructive. (which i like and play)

If it is forcing, then i would bid 2♠ over 2♦ with N hand as MikeH said.

i said I wouldn't bid 2♠ over 2♦...I think 2♥ is clear. I like getting credit for my opinions, but not this way

[omarsh10]

NORTH must show spades

[MrAce]

mikeh, on 2012-April-05, 19:51, said:

i said I wouldn't bid 2♠ over 2♦...I think 2♥ is clear. I like getting credit for my opinions, but not this way

Yes, sorry, i thought you bid 2♠ over 2♦ if you started DBL with this.

Justin's and your argument is indeed convincing about bidding 2♥ over 2♦ and starting with double with N hand.

I dont know others but at least i am convinced. Good post Justin.

[rhm]

JLOGIC, on 2012-April-05, 16:47, said:

This is a good bread and butter type hand. My thoughts:
...
2D - obviously fine

Pass - What?! I hope we can all agree this is the only stupid action of the auction. You cannot pass 2D!!!
...

Sorry I do not understand why 2D is obvious, nor why it is fine.
Would partner double with diamonds only? Hardly, he would bid 2D himself.
Am I likely to have more than 3 cards in spades when I overcalled 1 heart? You must be joking.
Do I expect more bidding with my club void? Of course I do.
Are we in danger of losing the diamonds? I have no intention selling out to further club bids.

I think South should have bid 2S with the intention of following up with a diamond bid later, showing more or less this distribution.
There must be a reason why we differentiate between majors and minors.
Overbidding (6 loser hand) slightly all white with a void in opponents fit is rarely detrimental.

It is true that North might or should have given preference.
However, my LHOs (West) have a habit of reraising clubs over 2D when they have a ten card fit and now I guess Pass from partner would not be that stupid and the spades are lost forever.

Rainer Herrmann