[jillybean]

I think I should start playing a weak nt.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2012-April-18, 10:53, said:

I think I should start playing a weak nt.

That won't help

As someone who usually plays a weak notrump and has done so, in one form or another, for 20 years or so, I can tell you that S has a clear 4♥ call (or a transfer if you play Texas) over a weak 1N, and I don't think it 1s remotely close.

No, the only way to avoid game is to pass as N, and, since pass is a permissible call in 2/1, playing weak notrump eliminates any hope of missing game absent peeking.

My own preference is to pass the North hand, but that is, by contrast, very close and I don't see opening as a huge error.

[aguahombre]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-April-17, 17:24, said:

In this age of "opening all elevens" and responding 2/1 GF with "all twelves " is bound to get you to unmakable games.

Perhaps if it went the way of a forcing 1NTF you might get out in 3H :
1S - 1NTF
2C - 3H jump
pass

Fluffy, on 2012-April-18, 09:57, said:

If I knew partner opens balanced 11s I wouldn't force to game with 12 missiftting counts. South's hand is worth more than a normal 12 count though but this is I/A not expert

Two posters who acknowledge the "modern paradox". Our choice is to open 11's with a 5cM 1M. Two4's auction is not resulting, IMO. His sequence shows 10-12 with a six card heart suit. Yes, South's 12 is all HCP working together; perhaps the void in pard's spade suit counterbalances that.

Even if you don't agree, disagreeing without scorn would be fine.

[sfi]

mikeh, on 2012-April-18, 11:55, said:

My own preference is to pass the North hand, but that is, by contrast, very close and I don't see opening as a huge error.

I agree with this - in some partnerships I open this and in others I pass. However, if the North hand is an opening (1S) bid then the South hand should not be forcing to game. The auction 1S - 3H; Pass looks clear if you have that option.

If you play a weak NT and open this, then you will always be in 4H.

I actually think it's harder to identify the spade wastage and stay out of game if North passes. BillPatch's sequence of P - 1H; 1S - 2H; 3H - 4H seems normal enough.

[jillybean]

jillybean, on 2012-April-18, 10:53, said:

I think I should start playing a weak nt.

mikeh, on 2012-April-18, 11:55, said:

That won't help

As someone who usually plays a weak notrump and has done so, in one form or another, for 20 years or so, I can tell you that S has a clear 4♥ call (or a transfer if you play Texas) over a weak 1N, and I don't think it 1s remotely close.

No, the only way to avoid game is to pass as N, and, since pass is a permissible call in 2/1, playing weak notrump eliminates any hope of missing game absent peeking.

My own preference is to pass the North hand, but that is, by contrast, very close and I don't see opening as a huge error.

How about a 10-12 nt?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

simple - pass with the North hand.

Sry, you have 11HCP, 5332 shape, not even AAK, Pass.

Another point in favour of pass - you have the spades,
and good ones, you can bid them later.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2012-April-18, 13:10, said:

How about a 10-12 nt?

That should maybe stop you, but S has an invitational hand, and N has a non-fitter but it is a max, so who knows?

Btw, I stopped playing 10-12 for a number of reasons, one of which was that a pass allowed the opps to place hcp with more accuracy than if my pass was limited to 9 hcp (once I was known to have a balanced hand). In addition, by having to open 1m with balanced 13-14 counts, we increased the opportunity of successful competition....there are hands on which 2nd seat wouldn't risk a 2-level overcall over a 12-14 1N, but has an easy 1-level overcall that hits a fit....and, even worse, 4th seat sometimes got to make an effective lead-directing overcall...say 1♣ [P] 1♥ [1♠], whereas after a weak 1N opening, RHO was frozen out.

Finally, 10-12 causes rebid problems in a standard-based methods. You either lower the 2N opening, which has risks of its own, or you have to include 13-19 in your 1N and 2N rebid structure after 1x - 1y - 1/2N, and this is wider than the traditional situation, and thus causes a loss of precision. Kokish suggested a 'fix' to this, whereby you open 1♣ or 1♦ with different ranges of a 1N rebid, say 1♣ with 13-14 and 1♦ with 14-15, but that carries significant costs of its own, especially in competition or for minor slam auctions.

10-12 was definitely fun to play, but we slowly realized that its defects outweighed its preemptive value (or maybe we just got older, who is to say?).

[jillybean]

Thanks Mike.

If we play a (11)12-14 nt then obviously the invitational responses must be adjusted upwards, our 1suit openings become 15-19 and the 2N rebid stays as 18-19?

What else do I need to know?

[gszes]

I am not the world's biggest fan of light openers and I admit
I would pass the N hand. That however is not the reason this
hand doesn't work well. IMO S has a very decent game forcing
hand opposite anything but a 1s bid. If p opened a club and the
dummy hit with say KQx xxxx Jxx AQx we would consider it very
bad luck to run into so much "wasted" in the spade suit. On the
given hand p opened 1s this should scream potential misfit and
we need to evaluate our hand down because now it would be good
luck for p to NOT have wasted values in spades.

IMO s should realize the danger and treat their hand as invitational
instead of game forcing. This will not always be right but only
because p opened 1s with a cruddy suit.

IMO s should bid 1n forcing and rebid 3h. I know this is not popular
and I have my flak jacket on already. This hand could be far worse
in the sense there is no reason the 1s bidder can't have even more
spades and less hearts and downgrading can save you a big minus.

Bridge is a game of % especially in game going bidding. Find a partner
that you are compatible with and work with them. Nothing will be right
all of the time you just have to be happy about how you arrived where
you did.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2012-April-18, 16:59, said:

Thanks Mike.

If we play a (11)12-14 nt then obviously the invitational responses must be adjusted upwards, our 1suit openings become 15-19 and the 2N rebid stays as 18-19?

What else do I need to know?

You have to decide whether to include 5 card majors in your range. When I play with Doug Fraser, who loves 11-14, we only have a 5 card major when the suit is ugly...no better than Kxxxx. When I play with Michael Roche, we don't have that restriction but we still tend to open 1M most of the time.

Perhaps the best advice I can give you is to abandon the idea of 11-14. Ballantyne and I used to play 11-13, while Roche and I play 12-14. 11-14 is simply too wide a range, imo.

The problem is that an 11-12 point responding hand is fairly common, and yet 11 opposite 11 is usually a very poor 2N, engendering minus positions for little potential gain. 12 opposite 11 isn't a heck of a lot better....plus now you have to accept all 13 counts, since that is max, and a mediocre 13 opposite 11 3N is borderline even for an expert declarer.

Yet if you say invite only with 12-13, you miss a lot of routine games when you have 11 opposite 14.

Every system has seams where combinations of hands cause problems due to system design, but a good system tries to confine those to low frequency layouts....balanced 11 opposite balanced 11-14 is one of the more frequent layouts, so you should try to avoid building in a systemic defect.

I've had this discussion with Doug, but he's a great guy, a fine player, and good partner and loves his 11-14, so what can I say?

[jillybean]

Just to clarify,

1. Are you recommending that I don't open 11 counts, full stop ?

2. If I have a 12-14 with a good 5 card major I open 1M, so that our 1M openings become 15-19 balanced or a good 5cM 12-19?

3. What about run outs after 1N (X) ? We play the standard 1N (X) XX > 2C

btw, I purchased Ballantyne at the recent VBC Charity game so it would be fun to play this with him.

[jillybean]

gszes, on 2012-April-18, 17:16, said:

.....

Bridge is a game of % especially in game going bidding.
Find a partner that you are compatible with and work with them.
Nothing will be right all of the time you just have to be happy about how you arrived where
you did.

Thanks for the interesting & informative response. I am beginning to take heed of these misfit hands, even when my other little voice is screaming that we want to be in game.

This hand would be a non issue with my regular partner, he would have shaken his head at my opening and carried on. I happen to have played this with another player with whom I have no history but has strong opinions, like 99% of players! I know I open light, often too light and this was one hand that given the partnership, I would have been better to pass.

[han]

Bridge is not an exact science. There is no system in the world that let's you bid all good games and avoids all bad games. Sometimes if the hands fit badly (which has as much to do with highcard placement as with shapes) you will get too high. If you made reasonable decisions but ended up in a poor game anyway because the hands fit badly, don't worry about it!

Playing a weak or strong or mini notrump has nothing to do with this issue. Whatever notrumpp range you play, north could still have a 5-1-3-4 shape with 11 HCP (or with 12 HCP, if you play more sound openings), and you might still get too high.

Also, on this hand west had K10xx and clubs split 4-2. On a favorable lie of the cards you might still have made 4H. My advice again: don't worry about it. If you watch the top pairs in the world, they will still bid a lot of bad games. Of course, they play the cards so well that they would make more of those games than you or I, but they would still go down in a game such as this.

Whether you open the north hand or not is a marginal decision in the long run. Sometimes it will work out well, sometimes it will work out badly. Don't change your whole bidding system or philosofy because of one hand (or for that matter, because of 10 hands).

[jillybean]

Thanks Han. I do realise that throwing out my entire nt system because of this one hand with a casual partner is absurd.
I'm interested in trying a weak nt, this thread simply piqued my interest again and sent me off on another track.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2012-April-18, 17:57, said:

Just to clarify,

1. Are you recommending that I don't open 11 counts, full stop ?

2. If I have a 12-14 with a good 5 card major I open 1M, so that our 1M openings become 15-19 balanced or a good 5cM 12-19?

3. What about run outs after 1N (X) ? We play the standard 1N (X) XX > 2C

btw, I purchased Ballantyne at the recent VBC Charity game so it would be fun to play this with him.

1. I recommend that you don't open balanced 11 counts. Unbalanced 11 counts: well, depends on controls, texture, rebid issues, LTC, etc

2. Generally, the possession of a 5 card suit, with internal texture, should add a hcp to your valuation, so that an 11 count becomes a 12 count, and thus is opened as a 12-14 1N, and a 14 count becomes a 15 count, and so falls outside of the range. This has nothing to do with my first point.....because an 11 count that is upgraded to a 12 count isn't an 11 count!

If you choose to frequently open 1N with a 5 card major, then a rebid of the cheapest NT by opener shows, presumably, 14+...see the note about upgrading.

3. Runouts: I have played several. My current one is that pass says nothing; redouble is a one suiter, and immediate bids are that suit and a higher. This allows us to play 1N x'd, which, once in a while, may be the best (least bad) spot.

In the past I have played a more complex method:

Pass forces redouble, to show 2 non-touching suits, or majors, with better spades, or blacks with equal length or a penalty pass
Bid shows lower of touching suits, if majors, then hearts as good as or better than spades, if blacks, then longer clubs
redouble forces 2♣ en route to a single suit

Note that you also need to discuss 1N P P x P P...you don't have the same bidding flexibility here since pass ends the auction.