[Cthulhu D]

Playing 2/1 GF with 5 card majors, a 14-16 NT and an agreement to open all 11 counts with an A or a K, what should the sequence 1H-3NT mean?

Currently in my regular partnerships we are playing it as exactly 3 card support in a balanced hand (4 spades is OK) with 13-15 points. This takes pressure off our 1M-2C sequences which include all balanced hands as well as unbalanced hands with clubs so 1M-2D/H are 5+.

Are there good alternative uses for the bid?

[straube]

Cthulhu D, on 2012-April-17, 23:02, said:

Playing 2/1 GF with 5 card majors, a 14-16 NT and an agreement to open all 11 counts with an A or a K, what should the sequence 1H-3NT mean?

Currently in my regular partnerships we are playing it as exactly 3 card support in a balanced hand (4 spades is OK) with 13-15 points. This takes pressure off our 1M-2C sequences which include all balanced hands as well as unbalanced hands with clubs so 1M-2D/H are 5+.

Are there good alternative uses for the bid?

I think your present use is poor because you deprive opener from showing his shape/shortness and consequently you can't assess how your high cards are working. I mean, if partner knew that you couldn't have a hand that could be improved by shortness (say 1H-3N with KJx xxx Kxx AKxx) it might be ok.

We use 1M-3N to show a splinter with shortness in the other major, but we play a strong club and want 1S-4H to be to play. I think 3N should be a specialized fit bid of some kind.

[Cthulhu D]

straube, on 2012-April-17, 23:38, said:

I think your present use is poor because you deprive opener from showing his shape/shortness and consequently you can't assess how your high cards are working. I mean, if partner knew that you couldn't have a hand that could be improved by shortness (say 1H-3N with KJx xxx Kxx AKxx) it might be ok.

We use 1M-3N to show a splinter with shortness in the other major, but we play a strong club and want 1S-4H to be to play. I think 3N should be a specialized fit bid of some kind.

It implicitly denies a 5 card suit, so it has to be 4-4-3-2 shape or 4-3-3-3, so it's effectively choice of games.

What you're saying makes sense though, maybe just pull 13-15 balanced in 2C.

[straube]

Cthulhu D, on 2012-April-17, 23:52, said:

It implicitly denies a 5 card suit, so it has to be 4-4-3-2 shape or 4-3-3-3, so it's effectively choice of games.

What you're saying makes sense though, maybe just pull 13-15 balanced in 2C.

Yeah, say opener has Axx AKQxx Qxxx x. You'll have a nice slam opposite KQx xxx AKJ Qxxx but not opposite Qxx xxx AKJ KQxx. As a rule, balanced hands should not consume a lot of bidding space (e.g. 1C-3N is terrible, really)and it's best if they let an unbalanced hand describe. It's called the Balanced Hand Principle.

[Cthulhu D]

straube, on 2012-April-18, 00:02, said:

Yeah, say opener has Axx AKQxx Qxxx x. You'll have a nice slam opposite KQx xxx AKJ Qxxx but not opposite Qxx xxx AKJ KQxx. As a rule, balanced hands should not consume a lot of bidding space (e.g. 1C-3N is terrible, really)and it's best if they let an unbalanced hand describe. It's called the Balanced Hand Principle.

OK that all makes sense. With that said, what should be in 3NT then.

[frank0]

In BWS 2001 they define 3N=preemptive raise to 4M but with more defensive, I play this agreement with some of my regular p. By playing this you can avoid missing slam in 1M-4M seq.

Another approach is you can just play
2N=13-15/19+ bal.
3N=16-18 bal.
both could and often include 3-cards support, this has the advantage that your 2/1, even in minor, shows a real 5+ suit.
For more detail read "Improving 2/1 GF" by Fred Gitelman
You can find the article by open old version BBO->Other Bridge Activity->Bridge Library->English->Articles->Improving 2/1 GF part 1~3

I think your present method is fine either and you already know the advantage.

[mgoetze]

At a strictly novice/beginner level I think it is perfectly fine to define 1M-3NT as "partner you look like you need to go to the restroom" or something like that. In other words, just don't bid it.

[phil_20686]

I lot of people play 1S-3N and 1H-3S as void splinter in any suit, with 4c/3N asking, and partner responding in steps. Then 1H-3N is your spade splinter. It helps partner sometimes if he knows that your splinter is never a void.

[Trinidad]

Your use of 3NT isn't as bad as people here make it look. As a matter of fact, such a raise was part of Bergen Raises. I would limit it, though, to 3334 and 3343 distributions with scattered honors.

If you would like to make your system a little more complicated then Phil's suggestion is good (if you don't have another way to show a void). A similar approach would be to use it to split the strength of your splinter bids: A direct splinter is either minimum (~11-13) or maximum (~17-19) and 1♥-3♠ and 1♠-3NT show an intermediate (~14-16) or super (~20+) hand. (1♥-3NT will take the meaning of the MIN/MAX spade splinter.)

Rik

[Antrax]

In my partnership it's a 4-3-3-3 hand with 13-15 HCP and no four card support for the major. Happened once so far and partner bid 4M over it and that was the end, so I don't know if it's the most efficient use.

[Gerben42]

Hi, I don't like shooting 3NT with any strong balanced hand, because it takes away a lot of bidding space in case partner is strong.
A simple but effective treatment is:

* 1♠ - 4♠ = 5-card support, no defensive trick (♠Qxxxx ♥x ♦xxxx ♣Jxx)
* 1♠ - 3NT = 5-card support, one defensive trick (♠Qxxxx ♥x ♦Axxx ♣Jxx)

[Fluffy]

Gerben42, on 2012-April-18, 05:24, said:

* 1♠ - 4♠ = 5-card support, no defensive trick (♠Qxxxx ♥x ♦xxxx ♣Jxx)
* 1♠ - 3NT = 5-card support, one defensive trick (♠Qxxxx ♥x ♦Axxx ♣Jxx)

The opponents will be glad to know

[broze]

phil_20686, on 2012-April-18, 03:16, said:

I lot of people play 1S-3N and 1H-3S as void splinter in any suit, with 4c/3N asking, and partner responding in steps. Then 1H-3N is your spade splinter. It helps partner sometimes if he knows that your splinter is never a void.

Yes, I really like incorporating this bid into your splinter system somehow. At the moment in my pship 1♥-3NT is a ♠ void splinter and 1♠- 3NT is an unspecified singleton splinter.

EDIT: Apologies, perhaps not suitable for N/B. Didn't notice.

[tolvyrj]

In our system, 1Major- 3Nt is strictly define as 4441 or 5440 shortness in opening suit and no 5 cards in other major 14-16. Jump in 3Nt consumes so much bidding space that its better to make it as descriptive as possible.

[steve2005]

I would have to disagree with the balanced hand principle. If a jump showing a balanced hand is narrowly defined(a picture bid) it serves its purpose.
I would suggest 3NT as showing 13-15 HCP(or could even more narrowly defined as 14-15) 4 trump and 4333 distribution. This type of hand has is hard to show without overbidding, as has no ruffing potential. Opener may be able to picture a dummy reversal, a hand that can make 3NT on power or a hand where 6M or 6NT is playable.

I also like some other suggestions, 13-15 3343 or 3343, 16-18 balanced and as a splinter in other major

[Phil]

Stepping out a lot given the forum, but....

1) I hate any use for 3N that includes a good balanced hand - trump support or not. If you must play it, at least make it so it cannot include four of the other major.

2) I played void splinters for a number of years. They rarely came up.

3) I currently play 1♥ - 3♠ and 1♠ - 3N as 'hidden splinters'. I haven't seen any big gains from this method, but I haven't seen where I'd want to use it for anything else either.

[ggwhiz]

I play it as you do if it gaurantees a 4x3 in that point range and it has worked well for us. Not uncommon either.

Partner usually picks the right game or is wary of 3rd round losers with slam ambitions or can get bullish with a shapely 2nd source of tricks in a 5-5 or better hand.

The 3nt choice of games with a 5-3 major fit is a huge gain on occasion and on normal hands we always pick the right contract unless one (or both) of us has been drinking.

[the hog]

OP the best meaning for 1M - 3NT is what fits in best with your system. Don't look at bids in isolation but at the system as a whole.

[Cthulhu D]

A question I probably should have asked in the OP is - assuming you sat down opposite a good partner with a complete system discussion of 2/1 GF with a strong NT, and partner bid 3NT over your 1H, what would you think he was

[Zelandakh]

1M - 3NT as 3M(334) and ~13-15 hcp is the so-called pudding raise convention and perfectly ok for novices and beginners. I personally use the treatment that phil_20686 describes but I would not usually recommend it for N/Bs.