[jillybean]

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Do you agree with 1♦?
What now?

[the hog]

jillybean, on 2012-November-21, 01:00, said:

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Do you agree with 1♦?
What now?

Totally disagree with 1D. This flies in face of all bidding theory. This is a 1H bid and therefore I do not have this problem now, If I played splinters in partner's suit, ( I don't), then this is a 4C bid.
If I misbid and bid 1D I would just bid 4H now and apologise to partner for making a mechanical.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 No
#2 4th suit forcing, i.e. either 1S or 2S

[kgr]

P_Marlowe, on 2012-November-21, 01:20, said:

#1 No
#2 4th suit forcing, i.e. either 1S or 2S

same for me

[Fluffy]

1♣-1♥
2♥-4♥

1♣-1♥
3♥-3♠

[Codo]

No, Horrible. A lot of people whould not even bid 1 ♦ with 54 in the reds... But with 5/5 it is plain silly.

Now, I can never recover. If I bid 4sf and raise later, this shows a Slam try or just 3 card support. Congratulations.

I try 4 ♥ now.

[helene_t]

Codo, on 2012-November-21, 03:43, said:

Now, I can never recover.

I think that is a bit harsh. If partner had three hearts it might have been impossible to find the fit but as it is we can can just sell the hand as 4-6 in the red suits or such, partner won't expect 5-card support but you can adjust the strength you express to compensate.

I would bit 4♥ now but if the hand is a tad strong for that then 4th suit followed by 4♥.

[Cyberyeti]

1♦ is an abomination.

What does 2♠ mean by your methods ? for me it's a splinter agreeing hearts, so I'll fake that (partner will value the ace only, shame I can't find out about the queen), at least it gives some idea I have 4+ card heart support and more diamonds, basically I'll bid it as a 1462 which is as close as I can now get. At least partner might set me up to go beyond 4♥ with Axx, KJxx, K, Axxxx.

[lycier]

never 1♦ but 1♥, it seems to be a simple things.

[mike777]

This reminds of a pard who always seemed to bid 1d after I open 1c no matter what.

Later I asked why and she explained she bid "up the line".

[jillybean]

A unanimous poll.

This was an experiment gone wrong, I started 1♦ thinking that if partner bid 1♠ next I could bid 2♥ and then hearts again
(wrong shape) and if partner bid 1♥/1♦ I would splinter 4♣ since clubs is likely not a suit.

My 4♣ was interpreted as gerber, partner responded 5♠ and we played in 6♥ - 1. Partner held 9862,AT95,7,AK96

[Phil]

1♦?

Surely someone that plays kickback and is experimenting with pass/double inversion knows better!

[ahydra]

jillybean, on 2012-November-21, 09:43, said:

My 4♣ was interpreted as gerber, partner responded 5♠ and we played in 6♥ - 1. Partner held 9862,AT95,7,AK96

Other people have said all there is to say on the 1♦ bid. But this is plain weird. Why would 4C be gerber? And what does a 5S response mean - eight aces? (or did you typo 4S)

ahydra

[neilkaz]

jillybean, on 2012-November-21, 09:43, said:

A unanimous poll.

This was an experiment gone wrong, I started 1♦ thinking that if partner bid 1♠ next I could bid 2♥ and then hearts again
(wrong shape) and if partner bid 1♥/1♦ I would splinter 4♣ since clubs is likely not a suit.

My 4♣ was interpreted as gerber, partner responded 5♠ and we played in 6♥ - 1. Partner held 9862,AT95,7,AK96

You need some serious discussions with this PD if he could possibly think that 4♣ is Gerber. I'd also appologize to PD for bidding ♦ rather than ♥ first when 5-5.

[jillybean]

Heh, I should have said I thought I held x56x

If you can disregard my appalling 1♦ bid for a moment, I would like to look at why 4♣ shouldn't be a splinter.
Partners club likely isn't a suit, 4♣ describes the hand and I don't see a better use for it.

[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2012-November-22, 09:31, said:

Heh, I should have said I thought I held x56x

If you can disregard my appalling 1♦ bid for a moment, I would like to look at why 4♣ shouldn't be a splinter.
Partners club likely isn't a suit, 4♣ describes the hand and I don't see a better use for it.

How do you bid x, x, KJxxx(x), AJxxx(x) ?

Opposite a potentially 2 card club, I probably agree with you, but opposite a 3 or 4 card club I think it can be natural.

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-November-22, 09:43, said:

How do you bid x, x, KJxxx(x), AJxxx(x) ?

Opposite a potentially 2 card club, I probably agree with you, but opposite a 3 or 4 card club I think it can be natural.

I did say the club bid is likely not a suit.

1♣ 1♦
1♥

If I have club support and a minimum I will bid 2♣, with club support and an invitation or gf I have xyz.
Even without xyz a jump to 3♣ would be invitational, a game forcing hand would go via 4SF.

[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2012-November-22, 10:01, said:

I did say the club bid is likely not a suit.

1♣ 1♦
1♥

If I have club support and a minimum I will bid 2♣, with club support and an invitation or gf I have xyz.
Even without xyz a jump to 3♣ would be invitational, a game forcing hand would go via 4SF.

Fair enough, most brits don't use XYZ so have more of an issue with this.

[Stephen Tu]

jillybean, on 2012-November-22, 09:31, said:

Heh, I should have said I thought I held x56x

If you can disregard my appalling 1♦ bid for a moment, I would like to look at why 4♣ shouldn't be a splinter.
Partners club likely isn't a suit, 4♣ describes the hand and I don't see a better use for it.

4c shouldn't be a splinter because you are playing with someone bad enough to interpret all 4c bids as Gerber, and also responds to Gerber at 5 level!

I think if you are playing with a good player, 4c is interpreted as spl, since club hands can be shown many different ways, via 4sf/xyz or whatever you are playing.

I disagree with your notion that partner's club "likely isn't a suit" if you mean that as "likely is a 3-cd suit". It likely *is* a suit, on this auction, particularly if you play a Walsh style where opener would rebid 1nt bypassing majors on all their 3 cd club opening hands. Even if not, it's going to be a suit way more often than not. Still 4c as a spl is reasonable because sometimes partners club suit was Jxxx or Jxxxx and most of their points are working. "Likely isn't a suit" is clearly wrong, "might not be a good suit with wastage" is more accurate.

But if you are playing with a 4c is always gerber player, of course it is much more practical to just bid 4h and avoid accidents. The # of slams you miss from not being able to splinter is rather small. And of course you don't bid 1d unless playing xfer walsh which you wouldn't be with this partner.

[the hog]

jillybean, on 2012-November-22, 10:01, said:

I did say the club bid is likely not a suit.

1♣ 1♦
1♥

If I have club support and a minimum I will bid 2♣, with club support and an invitation or gf I have xyz.
Even without xyz a jump to 3♣ would be invitational, a game forcing hand would go via 4SF.

In this case the C would definitely be a suit. I would be showing 5C and 4H. If you have a balanced hand, rebid in NT.