[Cyberyeti]

barsikb, on 2013-February-17, 07:30, said:

Zelandakh: "The trouble is that most learn a different form where 3♥ promises 4 spades"

Yes! Where can I read a better version?

What I think is the best version which I haven't actually switched to playing yet:

2N-3♣-

3M = 5 cards
3N = 2♠, 2/3♥
3♦ = none of the above, ie no 5M, 4M or 3♠ (so you can use this with 5♠/4♥, and if partner bids 3♦ you know you're playing 4M)

over 3♦:

3♥ = (not 4♥) or 5♠/4♥ over which 3♠ by opener shows 4
3♠ = 4♥ not 4♠
3N = 4-4 majors

[fromageGB]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-February-17, 15:57, said:

over 3♦:
3♥ = (not 4♥) or 5♠/4♥ over which 3♠ by opener shows 4
3♠ = 4♥ not 4♠
3N = 4-4 majors

This one is new to me (I rolled my own). Can you clarify what happens when opener has 32xx shape and responder 54xx? Presumably 3♦ 3♥ 3NT 4♥ transfer to 4♠?

And if opener has 24xx shape, responder 54xx? I can't see how this works.

[fromageGB]

Surely if responder has a 54xx hand and opener bids 3♦, then as you are playing in a major you can bid 4♣ (or 4♦) to show that shape and let opener pick the contract. But then that loses the ability to have that 4m bid mean something else. Maybe not important.

After 3♦ ..
.. 3♥ = none of the following (may have 4 spades)
.. 3♠ = 4 hearts, not 4 spades
.. 3NT = 4 spades + 4 hearts
.. 4♦ = 54xx

[Cyberyeti]

fromageGB, on 2013-February-17, 16:15, said:

This one is new to me (I rolled my own). Can you clarify what happens when opener has 32xx shape and responder 54xx? Presumably 3♦ 3♥ 3NT 4♥ transfer to 4♠?

And if opener has 24xx shape, responder 54xx? I can't see how this works.

It's not a proper puppet. 4m is much better as natural in the 2N-3♣-3♦-3♥-3N sequence hence 4♥ shows 54xx and opener passes/corrects to 4♠. You only fail to get opener playing the contract in a major when responder is 54xx and opener has 4 hearts and not 4 spades (you made your bed there when responder bid 3♥).

The only difficult bit to remember is that if you want to bid 2N-3♣-3♦-3N to play you have to interpolate 3♥

[fromageGB]

OK, but this is a big downside to have the 6 count playing the hand, and the 20 count down as dummy. My method has different downsides - it is a question of choosing your least evil.

[Cyberyeti]

fromageGB, on 2013-February-17, 17:58, said:

OK, but this is a big downside to have the 6 count playing the hand, and the 20 count down as dummy. My method has different downsides - it is a question of choosing your least evil.

It's a fairly rare downside, and an improvement on the (non puppet) system it's derived from.

[Zelandakh]

The (arguably) most popular form on these forums is known as Muppet Stayman. The idea of this is to switch the 3♥ and 3NT responses. Hence

2NT - 3♣
==
3♦ = 4 card major, no 5er
3♥ = no 4 or 5 card major
3♠ = 5 spades
3NT = 5 hearts

This has the advantage of keeping you lower on the most common hand types. The form that I prefer is

2NT - 3♣
==
3♦ = 3-4 spades and/or 4 hearts
3♥ = 5 hearts (3♠ = slam try+ in hearts; 4m = nat)
3♠ = 5 spades (4m = nat; 4♥ = slam try+ in spades)
3NT = <3 spades, <4 hearts


2NT - 3♣; 3♦
==
3♥ = asks for 4 spades (3♠ = 4 spades, 3NT = <4 spades (then 4m = nat))
3♠ = shows 4 hearts
3NT = 4-4 majors, non-forcing
4♣ = 4-4 or better majors, slam try+
4♦ = 5 spades, 4 hearts
4♥ = 5 clubs, 4 diamonds
4♠ = 5 diamonds, 4 clubs


2NT - 3♣; 3♦ - 3♥; 3♠
==
4m = nat
4♥ = slam try+ in spades


The trouble is that neither of these is a N/B convention. You can find out more about both of these methods (and some others that are also good) by searching old threads on the forums. I would personally recommend all N/B players to use simple Stayman over a 2NT opening and to forget about Puppet Stayman altogether.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2013-February-18, 03:11, said:

The (arguably) most popular form on these forums is known as Muppet Stayman. The idea of this is to switch the 3♥ and 3NT responses. Hence


2NT - 3♣; 3♦
==
3♥ = asks for 4 spades (3♠ = 4 spades, 3NT = <4 spades (then 4m = nat))
3♠ = shows 4 hearts
3NT = 4-4 majors, non-forcing
4♣ = 4-4 or better majors, slam try+
4♦ = 5 spades, 4 hearts
4♥ = 5 clubs, 4 diamonds
4♠ = 5 diamonds, 4 clubs



The trouble is that neither of these is a N/B convention. You can find out more about both of these methods (and some others that are also good) by searching old threads on the forums. I would personally recommend all N/B players to use simple Stayman over a 2NT opening and to forget about Puppet Stayman altogether.

How would you modify this if you didn't need to take care of the 54 minors hands because they were in your 3♠ bid ? This is quite similar to my version (which was home developed off Crowhurst's non puppet enquiry).

[Zelandakh]

You do not really need the 4M bids for anything at all. It was my own idea to use them for minor suit 5-4s, something which I had already adopted in my 1NT Puppet structure. I suppose you might adjust this to 5-3 minors and slam interest, which helps to avoid missing 5-3 minor suit fits when Opener has the 5 card suit. Another possibility might be to keep the same shape but deny slam interest but I imagine it would be difficult to judge when it is good to bypass 3NT. Maybe best would be to bid 22(45) via a 3♠ response, 31(45) via 3♣ and 13(45) using whichever it fits better to. As you have probably guessed, my 3♠ response contains only 5-5 minor and single suited club hands. My feeling is that adding 5-4 minor hands here too is an overload, especially when we can bid them in such a way as to rule out a 5-3 major fit by using a Puppet sequence.

[barsikb]

Thank you to the experts for the discussion. I'll print it out and study.