[Codo]

rmnka447, on 2013-March-14, 01:44, said:

I'm another passer over 2 ♥ with this hand.

You may see a 10 point hand, but I see a 9 loser hand with lots of quacks.

If the hand were, say, ♠ xxx ♥ J10 ♦ Kxx ♣ AQxxx, I'd have no trouble inviting game.

I see too many chances for 4 ♥ to pass.

[fromageGB]

Trinidad, on 2013-March-13, 13:05, said:

Just curious. What do you rebid with a 13 point 4513? or a 4504? or a 3514? or a 3505? Are these all 2♦ rebids?

gwnn, on 2013-March-14, 01:44, said:

Nope. He was saying 2C is 15+ artificial. Gazzilli has 2C as 11-14 with clubs or 15+ any/almost any.

This is the way most people play it, some say 15 is enough, some need 17. I like 15, as it copes well enough. But with a 5 card minor such as the 3505 15/16 count I prefer to rebid jump 3♣, and with 17+ go through Gazzilli. The other exceptions I use are an immediate 2NT is 20+ unbalanced, and 3♥(same major) is suit-setting game force.

An advantage of playing 15+ is that the 2♦ is limited to 14, which makes it easy for partner to sign off.

[gwnn]

fromageGB, on 2013-March-14, 05:28, said:

This is the way most people play it, some say 15 is enough, some need 17. I like 15, as it copes well enough. But with a 5 card minor such as the 3505 15/16 count I prefer to rebid jump 3♣, and with 17+ go through Gazzilli. The other exceptions I use are an immediate 2NT is 20+ unbalanced, and 3♥(same major) is suit-setting game force.

An advantage of playing 15+ is that the 2♦ is limited to 14, which makes it easy for partner to sign off.

But what does 2♦ promise if 2♣ is 15+ artificial?
Or do you mean that you play

2♣=(3)4+ clubs 11-14 OR 15+ art (many but not all strong hands)
2♦=(1)2+ diamonds, 11-14?

The brackets indicating that I (and Trinidad) still don't know what you do with 4513.

[broze]

Zelandakh, on 2013-March-13, 09:33, said:

Imperfect is one word for it, I can think of a few others. Am I alone in thinking that this is one of the worst popular bidding ideas around today? I do not really understand why good players use 1NT like this over a 1♥ opening, when there is a perfectly good alternative available in 1♠ that would allow pairs to play exactly the same structure as they do over a 1♠ opening. And there are other options too. Nearly every option would be simpler for normal club players to handle than the 2/1 that everyone seems to learn unquestioningly.

Better, sure. But simpler? And is systematically rebidding 2♣ with 4522 so much worse than rebidding 2♣ with 3523? I can certainly see why people don't add system here to address this pretty infrequent problem.

[Zelandakh]

broze, on 2013-March-14, 06:03, said:

Better, sure. But simpler? And is systematically rebidding 2♣ with 4522 so much worse than rebidding 2♣ with 3523? I can certainly see why people don't add system here to address this pretty infrequent problem.

There are many possibilities. KI is one that has already been mentioned. A simpler one is to play 1♠ as a F1NT response and a 1NT response to be GF with spades. That gives an identical structure to the 1♠ opening - you just have to remember that NT and spades are inverted. For me, this is simpler than having 2 different structures, even if the structures are considered more natural.

You can also play this in combination with Gazilli, so that 1♥ - 1♠; 1NT = diamonds or strong and 1♥ - 1♠; 2♦ = spades. That is obviously not simpler but if you are playing Gaz then simple is probably not top of the priority list. You can also do quite a lot with transfers after a 1♥ auction. That may or may not be seen as simple depending on how complicated you think they are. Rememeber though, the only reason that most of these methods are seen as more compicated is because we all learn a certain way of playing at the beginning. If everyone was taught symmetric relay as a beginner, then 2/1 would suddenly look complicated. There is nothing intrinsically more complicated about the NT-spade inversion and it is more consistent with the 1♠ opening. This would (imo) certainly be the simplest F1NT method possible if it were taught as standard. And I suspect that it would (slightly) improve the results of most I/A pairs too.

[fromageGB]

gwnn, on 2013-March-14, 05:45, said:

But what does 2♦ promise if 2♣ is 15+ artificial?
Or do you mean that you play

2♣=(3)4+ clubs 11-14 OR 15+ art (many but not all strong hands)
2♦=(1)2+ diamonds, 11-14?

The brackets indicating that I (and Trinidad) still don't know what you do with 4513.

For a start, let me say my preferred treatment is KI, so this particular 4513 hand goes 1♥ 1♠ 2♦, and this 2♦ says nothing about the minors, but shows a 12-14 with 4 spades.

However, the answer I gave was a general one. If you are playing Gazzilli with a 17+ as most do, then the way to handle it would be to say 2♦ is 12-16 and guarantees a doubleton, to help the pass option, and 2♣ is most 17 counts, or 12-16 with at least 3 clubs. Over the 8+ 2♦ relay, the 12-16 option rebids 2♥, which can be passed, or perhaps converted to clubs etc.

I don't like this, personally, as I don't think knowledge of 3 clubs or 2 diamonds is much of a help in determining the contract. So what I do (and I am not recommending this, it's just my preference) is not bother with the minors at all. 2♦ is purely and simply a denial of 15hcp. Partner can pass with 5+ diamonds, and opener would normally have some diamonds, but the contract is more usually 2♥. Not ideal, but I like the ability given by gazzilli for opener to define strength, and treat this as more important. A non-forcing NT would avoid this, but again I like the advantages given by a forcing NT, and choose to suffer this. It is rarely a problem.

This is I think only marginally worse than the standard Gazzilli in finding a minor fit (where 2♦ could be a doubleton and 2♣ only 3) but I like the trade off it gives that 2♦ shows 14 max. 12-16 is too wide for responder to make a sensible bid, but 12-14 is manageable with simple game inquiries (eg 2NT, and 3♥ if not including this in your 2♣ response), or sign off in any suit. When there is a 2♣ 2♦ sequence, opener rebids naturally at the 2 level with 15/16 and bids at the 3 level with 17. So 2♥ is 6, 2♠ is 4, 2NT = neither. (1♠ 1NT 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ is 4 card 15/16). There are significant advantages in showing a 6 card heart suit with 2♥ as either 12-14, or 15/16.

You can probably do better with more artificial sequences, as Zelandakh points out.

Edit - I say 12-14, 12-16 etc because I will only open with 11 if a 6 card suit, and that rebids 2♥. I have weak 2s that manage the 5 card 11 count. (And other edits)

This post has been edited by fromageGB: 2013-March-14, 12:01

[SteveMoe]

Depending on your opening style, 2N should show 9-11 and an inability to raise ♥. Since opener showed 6, that should limit responder to 0-1♥ cards. It should also suggest a ♠ stopper. With no ability to raise a 6-card suit and no ♠ stop, 2♠ not 2N can be a useful rebid after the 1NT force (some might prefer to assign this a 54+ minors hand with top values).
With 2-card ♥ support raise opener to 3.
With 3-card ♥ support raise partner to 4, especially if you have some distribution. As others note, raising to 4 is probably better if you expect Rule of 22 opening bids.

[aguahombre]

Unless opener's simple rebid showing a minimum 1-bid to start with has a top count of 16, which very few systems have ---then misfitting responders should forget 9-counts as part of their invite range.

With most opening bid styles, 10 is not enough to invite game without a fit. We believe 1H-1N-2H, when we hold 0-1 heart is a misfit auction where invites should be 11-12, and when we hold a crummy 10 with two-card support a pass should be considered as well.

It is not correct to assume because partner didn't open a weak-2 that he has a good opening bid; it might be a weak one just different in its honor disbursement from a weak-2.

[gwnn]

Before I forget: sorry jillybean for hijacking.

And fromageGB, are you sure about this? I think normal is to have

1H-1NT
pass=includes all balanced hands
2C=minimum with 5H4C or 17+ (or I guess some goodish 4522/4513)
2D=4 diamonds!!

Can you show any reference where they recommend bidding 2D without 4 diamonds?

[Fluffy]

jillybean, on 2013-March-13, 07:36, said:

Raising hearts is a 3 card limit raise for me, same hand as 1H 1N 2x 3H

3♥ shows a hand that wants to play 4♥ opposite a good hand and 3♥ opposite a bad hand.

Don't overthink this, the goal of constructive bidding is to reach sensible contracts not to tell partner what you have.

[fromageGB]

gwnn

Don't forget, I play a forcing 1NT, so opener cannot pass with a minimum. Responder could have a 15 count balanced hand.
This means that a weaker opener with a fairly balanced hand has to bid something. A 4531 12 count bids what? A 4522 bids what?

This the downside of the forcing NT, but those who play it have to live with the disadvantages as well as the advantages. There is no "sensible" rebid, and I like to keep 2♥ to show a 6 card suit. So what to do? If someone has discovered a new bid, ideally coming between 1NT and 2♣, please let me know. There are different choices :

(1) You could say that 2♦ is a genuine 4 card suit. That means every other hand, including the 12 count 4531, has to bid an artificial 2♣. This can be combined with a Gazzilli option of say a variety of 17+ hands, then after a 2♦ relay you could, for example, say 2♥ = any of the weak options without 4 diamonds, may have 5 clubs, but equally may have 1 club. Not much use in helping partner judge the right contract. And you don't want to bid higher than 2♥, as that is often the only resting place with a weak opener opposite a weak responder.

(2) You could say that 2♦ is a 2 card suit. This is a compromise which makes that bid easier to pass when responder has more diamonds than opener has hearts, and means that 2♣ would be a 3 card suit if weak.

(3) neither of those options are much good, in my view, in describing the hand, and both have the limitation that forces gazzilli followed by 2♥ to be a minimum hand, and this does not show a 6 card suit. So my choice is to abandon the attempt to show minors completely. Now 2♣ can be 15+, to be followed by completely natural bids after the relay such that a bid above 2NT is 17+, and a lower bid is 15/16. As a consequence, an opener 2♦ says nothing about the hand other than it is 12-14.

No, I can show no reference recommending this treatment, and I did say I am not recommending it. But I do appreciate being able to show 12-14 and 15/16 with different bids, and think the benefits of this outweigh the loss of very poor (practically useless) definition in the minors. I am happy with it.

I would be interested (jillybean permitting) to hear what others do in this 45xx scenario when playing a forcing 1NT.

[Free]

1♥-1NT-2♥ always shows a 6 card suit. Responder basically has the following options:
2NT = this is similar to 1M-1NT-2m-2NT (which is a balanced INV), however, balanced hands have fit. So this rather promisses a singleton M with some 5431 distribution, but it's still an INV. (invites with a 6 card suit shouldn't start with 1NT, with a 5440 responder should've responded 1NT, with 5-5m he'd now bid 2♠, so 5431 pretty much all that's left)
3♥ = invitational with 2♥. Invites with 3+♥ bid differently in our partnership. However, when INV with 3♥ start with 1NT, you can now bid either 3♥ or 4♥ depending on how good the hand is. Opener will just bid game with a max hand and pass with a min. He shouldn't count on an extra ♥.

The question about 4=5=2=2's has been asked, and the standard "solution" is for opener to rebid 2♣ (so responder can still pass or bid 2♦ with a weak hand and long m). With 4=5=1=3 or 4=5=3=1 the 3 card m is rebid, just like when opener is balanced (5332).
As you know, I'm a Gazzilli fan, so I play 1M-1NT-2♦ as a 4 card suit (only exception is 4=5=3=1) and 2♣ Gazzilli (showing 2+♣ in case opener is min). It's quite a good tradeoff imo.

[fromageGB]

Free, on 2013-March-15, 07:56, said:

As you know, I'm a Gazzilli fan, so I play 1M-1NT-2♦ as a 4 card suit (only exception is 4=5=3=1) and 2♣ Gazzilli (showing 2+♣ in case opener is min). It's quite a good tradeoff imo.

So you get the useful knowledge of a (usually) 4 card diamond suit, but how does opener show where he is in the 11-16 range? Say with a 6 card heart suit?

I suppose if you include a 5 card major in your 1NT open, that avoids the 15/16 problem with a 5422 or 3532, but I must admit, I like to open a major whatever the strength, so I have to cater for those as well.

[Free]

fromageGB, on 2013-March-15, 08:47, said:

So you get the useful knowledge of a (usually) 4 card diamond suit, but how does opener show where he is in the 11-16 range? Say with a 6 card heart suit?

I suppose if you include a 5 card major in your 1NT open, that avoids the 15/16 problem with a 5422 or 3532, but I must admit, I like to open a major whatever the strength, so I have to cater for those as well.

Slightly going off topic here, but ok, lets keep it short.

Our strong hands in Gazzilli start from 16+. So weaker hands bid 'natural' (in your example 1M-1NT-2M shows 11-15 with 6+M). Opener doesn't have to show if he has 11 rather than 15, responder will invite if he's strong enough after which opener can accept with a max or reject with a min. If responder doesn't even have an invite, we stay low.