[Kungsgeten]

Hi!

I've only dabbled in relay systems and DCB (having played a forcing pass system with relays for a couple of months). We currently asks for controls (A=2, K=1). We have to minimums: bids having at least 8 hcp must have at least 1 control. Bids showing at least 12 hcp must have at least 2 controls. The first step after patterning out then shows 1-2 / 2-3 controls.

My understanding from these forums is that many play QP/zz/slam points (A=3, K=2, Q=1) instead of controls. I've understood that the DCB works the same, whether you use controls or QP. What's the pros/cons of QP vs controls?

[Zelandakh]

Click here for the last thread on this subject.

[Kungsgeten]

Thank you very much, lots of great info there! Just out of curiosity, what system do you play/prefer Zelandakh? I tend to like your posts and views on bidding. Some sort of polish if I'm not mistaken?

[Zelandakh]

My system can be likened to Polish, in that it uses a 3-way 1♣ opening but with 15-17 balanced included instead of 12-14 balanced. In practise it plays somewhat differently. The follow-ups to all of the 1 level suit openings involve relays, with transfers used after 1NT and 2♣. For controls, I use a (very) simple A=2, K=1 DCB method. When using AK points, it is very important imho to include 1 or more relay breaks for queen asks.

The majority of the BBF relayers use a QP (A=3, K=2, Q=1) method. When I looked into this, I found that the combination of AK points and queen asks was very slightly better for my system. However, I did not look in great detail, nor at every follow-up scheme, and most of the BBFers also use QPs within the system for responses and the like. It is quite possible that such methods are superior overall.

My view is really that both are playable within the correct structure. QPs benefit more from reverse relays and more complex follow-ups, AK points practically require some relay breaks to be available for queens. On the other hand, AK points are (arguably) more effective at deciding quickly if slam is likely to be there in combination with some general strength (hcp) limits. I think that most players new to relays should probably start with AK points and a comparatively simple DCB structure. Once that is mastered, moving on to a (more complex) QP system is a logical next step. By that stage, the player should be able to decide for themselves which they prefer.

[antonylee]

Zelandakh, on 2013-April-15, 02:45, said:

My system can be likened to Polish, in that it uses a 3-way 1♣ opening but with 15-17 balanced included instead of 12-14 balanced. In practise it plays somewhat differently. The follow-ups to all of the 1 level suit openings involve relays, with transfers used after 1NT and 2♣. For controls, I use a (very) simple A=2, K=1 DCB method. When using AK points, it is very important imho to include 1 or more relay breaks for queen asks.

The majority of the BBF relayers use a QP (A=3, K=2, Q=1) method. When I looked into this, I found that the combination of AK points and queen asks was very slightly better for my system. However, I did not look in great detail, nor at every follow-up scheme, and most of the BBFers also use QPs within the system for responses and the like. It is quite possible that such methods are superior overall.

My view is really that both are playable within the correct structure. QPs benefit more from reverse relays and more complex follow-ups, AK points practically require some relay breaks to be available for queens. On the other hand, AK points are (arguably) more effective at deciding quickly if slam is likely to be there in combination with some general strength (hcp) limits. I think that most players new to relays should probably start with AK points and a comparatively simple DCB structure. Once that is mastered, moving on to a (more complex) QP system is a logical next step. By that stage, the player should be able to decide for themselves which they prefer.

Can you elaborate on the relay breaks you use to ask for queens (using AK points)?
Thanks.

[Zelandakh]

Once the relays have reached a certain point (any relay has been made after shape resolution) all bids of 4NT and 5NT become asks instead of quantitative. The lowest NT ask is a queen ask. Partner bids the lowest suit where they do not hold a queen. A new higher-ranking suit is now a non-forcing queen ask; partner passes without the queen of the suit bid or bids the next suit without a queen. 4NT followed by 5NT sets up jack asks. They work the same way except that they are forcing - without the jack of the suit bid, partner must bid 6NT. Finally, a jump to 5NT (if available) sets up forcing queen asks. These work the same way as the forcing jack asks.

As an extra aside, singleton kings are treated as queens here. You do not count it in the AK points but do give a positive in the suit if a queen ask is made. This allows the king to be located when the relayer holds a suit like AQJxxx.

I suspect that there is a better way than this and I did not put a huge amount of thought into it. Truth be told, I ripped the idea directly from the 3-suiter method on Chris Ryall's site and then made some small amendments. They fill a system gap reasonably well though and are simple.

[Valardent]

Zelandakh, on 2013-July-09, 02:39, said:

Once the relays have reached a certain point (any relay has been made after shape resolution) all bids of 4NT and 5NT become asks instead of quantitative. The lowest NT ask is a queen ask. Partner bids the lowest suit where they do not hold a queen. A new higher-ranking suit is now a non-forcing queen ask; partner passes without the queen of the suit bid or bids the next suit without a queen. 4NT followed by 5NT sets up jack asks. They work the same way except that they are forcing - without the jack of the suit bid, partner must bid 6NT. Finally, a jump to 5NT (if available) sets up forcing queen asks. These work the same way as the forcing jack asks.

As an extra aside, singleton kings are treated as queens here. You do not count it in the AK points but do give a positive in the suit if a queen ask is made. This allows the king to be located when the relayer holds a suit like AQJxxx.

I suspect that there is a better way than this and I did not put a huge amount of thought into it. Truth be told, I ripped the idea directly from the 3-suiter method on Chris Ryall's site and then made some small amendments. They fill a system gap reasonably well though and are simple.

Hi Zel,

I don't understand what u mean with :
"A new higher-ranking suit is now a non-forcing queen ask; partner passes without the queen of the suit bid or bids the next suit without a queen"

especially the part "..or bids the next suit without a queen"

Could u give an example with a complete bidding sequence?

Also, if 4NT serves as a Q ask purpose, how do u sign off in NT?

Last but not least, I was never properly explained what a reverse relay is. Could you explain it or post a link refering it to?

Tx

[hrothgar]

Valardent, on 2013-July-09, 09:26, said:

I was never properly explained what a reverse relay is. Could you explain it or post a link refering it to?

Relay auction rely on one player being the relay captain and a second being the relay responder.

Typically, the relay asker makes a 1 step response asking relay responder to further describe his hand.
During a reverse relay, the relay asker makes a Step +2 (or higher) response, simultaneously describing his hand and switching captaincy.
Often players decrease the memory load by using precisely the same relay schedule for both types of response.
Normally, the decision to reverse relay is used to convey some important piece on information about the relay captain's hand.

As a practical example, here's a simple symmetric relay response structure for balanced hands

1N = balanced
2C = Relay

2D = 4+ Hearts
2H = 4+ Spades (2-3 Hearts)
2S = Any 4333 hand
2N = 5332 with primary Diamonds
3C = 4432 with Clubs and Diamonds
3D+ = 5332's with primary Diamonds

Assume that the auction started

1C - 1N where 1C is strong and 1NT shows a balanced positive

Here the strong club opener could either bid 2C as a relay, asking RR to further describe his hand OR
bid 2D+ (showing a balanced hand and transferring captaincy)

In this case, the Reverse Relay would typically be used to limit the strong club opener's hand strength so his partner would be able to judge the combined strength of the two hands and be better positioned to evaluate slam.

[Zelandakh]

Valardent, on 2013-July-09, 09:26, said:

Hi Zel,

I don't understand what u mean with :
"A new higher-ranking suit is now a non-forcing queen ask; partner passes without the queen of the suit bid or bids the next suit without a queen"

especially the part "..or bids the next suit without a queen"

Could u give an example with a complete bidding sequence?

Also, if 4NT serves as a Q ask purpose, how do u sign off in NT?

Last but not least, I was never properly explained what a reverse relay is. Could you explain it or post a link refering it to?

Tx

Here is an example from an old BBF thread that I think illustrates this mechanism particularly well. The hands are:

---

and the auction begins

1♦ = 10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal
... - 1♥ = INV+ relay
2♣ = max, 4+ clubs, GF
... - 2♦ = relay
2♠ = 5-5 or better minors
... - 2NT = relay
3♣ = 0355 or 1255
... - 3♦ = relay
3♥ = 0355
... - 3♠ = relay
4♦ = 5 controls

There has been a relay after shape resolution so 4NT and 5NT are now queen asks. Continuing:
... - 4NT = queen ask
5♣ = no ♣Q
... - 6♦ = non-forcing queen ask
6♥ = ♦Q, no ♥Q
... - 7♦

Here, North wants to play 6♦ if South does not hold the ♦Q and 7♦ if they do. Bidding 6♦ as a non-forcing ask for the ♦Q achieves this effect. Of course, it is possible that North also wanted to know about other queens, so South makes the curtesy bid of 6♥ to not only show the ♦Q but also deny the ♥Q. If South held both red queens but not the ♠Q, the bid would be 6♠.

Signing off in NT is expected to happen earlier. If there is no fit, th Relayer bids the appropriate number of NT after shape resolution. Once you get past this point in the relays, you are committed to playing in either a suit contract or slam. This is not dissimilar from the way many pairs play RKCB so is not too terrible. Obviously, there is a hit at MP when we were investigating 6m and cannot play in 5NT though.

Finally, reverse relays are a way of allowing the hand that usually relays, typically the strong club opener, describe instead of ask. This is most typically done when the hand that would normally describe is balanced and the hand that would normally ask is unbalanced, since many relay pairs believe that unbalanced hands should always describe themselves to balanced hands. The trade-off is that it sometimes forces the normal relays to be a step higher and is generally a complex subject. If you are interested in more information, here is a link to a fairly high-level discussion on the subject. Hrothgar (the previous poster) and awm are probably the two posters on BBF with the most knowledge and experience of this subject and can almost certainly answer any questions you have about it.

[awm]

Quick question for Zelandakh: How do you sign off in 6♦ if the direct 6♦ bid is a non-forcing queen ask? For example, if you give responder ♠QTx ♥AQJ ♦Jxxx ♣Axx then you want to be in slam even if opener lacks both queens (slam just needs the diamond queen falling in a 5-4 fit, with additional chances in clubs if opener has the jack or ten) but you really don't want to be in a grand without the club queen (regardless of whether opener has diamond queen).

[Zelandakh]

The specific hand you post is not a problem because the answer to 4NT is 5♦, showing the ♣Q and denying the ♦Q. Then 6♦ is to play since it is not a higher-ranking suit (and we already know about ♦Q). However, this is just a bad example and the issue does exist for all other combinations. That is, whenever the following 4 things all exist:

a. there is a critical side queen we need to know about
b. the trump queen is irrelevant
c. we are deciding between 5 and 6
d. the critical side queen is clubs and our trump suit is a major; or the critical side queen is not clubs

When this comes up (and to be honest I have never seen it as yet) you just have to stay in relays and hope there is enough space. The alternative route (RKCB) does not help you here either. The simple truth is that the minNT relay break is envisaged as a trump queen ask. The jump 5NT relay break is designed as a surrogate SSA for grand investigation. The circumstances you describe are rare enough, and difficult enough for any other system besides QPs, that we can survive without it. By contrast, the trump queen ask comes up often even when many of these hands relay break earlier into a RKCB sequence.