[mikestar13]

Been experimenting with methods to show the Raptor-type hands on defense without sacrificing the natural 1NT overcall.
Here is what we've come up with,notice the similarities to and the differences from The Overcall Structure:

Double, non-jump suit overcalls, and 1NT are normal.

(1♣)-?

• 2♣ = 4 spades and 5+ diamonds.
• 2♦ = 4 hearts and 5+ diamonds.
• 2♥ = 4 spades and 5+ hearts.
• 2♠ = Weak jump overcall.
• 2NT = strong two-suited including hearts.

(1♦)-?

• 2♦ = 4 hearts and 5+ clubs.
• 2♥ = 4 spades and 5+ hearts.
• 2♠ = 4 spades and 5+ clubs.
• 2NT = Strong two-suited including spades.

(1♥)-?

• 2♥ = 4 spades and 5+ diamond.
• 2♠ = 4 spades and 5+ clubs.
• 2NT = Strong two-suited including clubs.

(1♠)-?

• 2♠ 4 hearts and 5+ minor (advancer's 2NT asks).
• 2NT = Strong two suited including diamonds.

With a strong two-suited hand lacking the appropriate anchor suit, cue bid instead and follow up with a strong rebid, most commonly by rebidding an unsupported major.




This shows the 4-5 hand that aren't suitable to double, at the cost of giving up weak jump overcalls at the two level (except (1♣)-2♠). So far finding it a worthwhile trade.

[Cthulhu D]

What are you doing with 5/5s? Just bid them naturally? I'm hestitant to limit the amount you can make the two suited bit, having played these as 5/4 or better for a while now they are just so good when they come up that I want to maximise the frequency.

[dake50]

(1♣)-?
•2♣ = 4 spades and 5+ diamonds.
•2♦ = 4 hearts and 5+ diamonds.
•2♥ = 4 spades and 5+ hearts.
•2♠ = Weak jump overcall.
•2NT = strong two-suited including hearts.

Double, non-jump suit overcalls, and 1NT are normal.
*** Except 1D won't have 5+D with 4xS nor 4xH.
1H won't have 5+H with 4xS.
Dbl won't have 4xS with 5+H nor 5+D; nor 4xH with 5+D; nor 4xS with 5+H.
I've modified OS with 2-bids showing hearts and bid suit,
letting 1D, 1H MAY also have spades. Specifically over 1C, 1D.
My point is modifying 2-bids also modifies the 1-bids. I like the more
frequent 4-5's coming into the auction, rather than waiting for the WJO/Roman shapes.

[rbforster]

Looks like its pretty much exactly overcall structure to me, minus the X-1NT swap which is really an independent part from the two suiter's treatment. I suppose OC doesn't restrict the two suiters to being exactly 4 in the higher suit, but of course that's often the case. In my style for OC, you only make a two-suited bid with 5/5 if 1) you're forcing both suits to the 3 level (i.e.1S-3C for minors), or 2) your hand is so weak you would not freely bid your lower suit at the 2 level if you started with a simple overcall in the higher suit.

[Zelandakh]

Over 1♣, would it nor be better to go down the multi route? Say

(1♣)
==
2♣ = 5+ diamonds and a 4 card major
2♦ = wjo in a major
2♥ = 5+ hearts, 4+ spades
2♠ = 5+ spades, 5+ diamonds

Obviously the 2m calls could be reversed.

It is more difficult over 1♦. Perhaps

(1♦)
==
2♦ = 5+ clubs and a 4 card major
2♥ = 5+ hearts, 4+ spades
2♠ = wjo in spades

Over 1♥, the advantage in showing the minor seems to be minimal, so using 2♥ for both is a no-brainer.

(1♥)
==
2♥ = 4 spades and a 5+ card minor
2♠ = wjo in spades

For what it is worth, my pet idea in this area is to play

(1♣)
==
2♣ = wjo in a major; or spades and diamonds, strong
2♦ = wjo
2♥ = majors, weak
2♠ = spades and diamonds, weak
2NT = hearts and diamonds, weak or strong
3♣ = majors, strong

and

(1♦)
==
2♦ = wjo in a major; or spades and clubs, strong
2♥ = majors, weak
2♠ = spades and clubs, weak
2NT = hearts and clubs, weak or strong
3♣ = wjo
3♦ = majors, strong

but that is designed to fix a different problem from the one you are throwing up.

[Kungsgeten]

Be sure to check out Canapé Jump Overcalls, if you haven't already. http://viewsfromtheb...p-overcall.html

Basically a jump to 2M shows 4 cards in the suit bid and a 5+ minor.

[Free]

I don't like several things:
- losing the option to show 5-5 immediately
- losing natural jump overcalls at 2-level
- committing to 3-level after 1♠ openings

What you gain is very limited compared to what you lose imo. I'd rather give up the natural 1NT and play Raptor than give up all of this to keep my natural 1NT overcall. But actually I don't even want to be able to show this hand type immediately because I've very rarely missed having such call.

[Siegmund]

I used 4-5 overcalls for a long time with a few regular partners... a variation we called 'Michelangelo', part Michaels and part Roman Jumps:
1C-2C = 4S 5+Red
1C-2D = 4H 5+D
1D-2D = 4M 5+C
1D-2H = 4S 5+H
1H-2H = 4S 5+m
We required 5-5 for 1S-2S and for 2NT showing minors since we were forced to the 3-level.

Quote

What are you doing with 5/5s? Just bid them naturally? I'm hestitant to limit the amount you can make the two suited bit, having played these as 5/4 or better for a while now they are just so good when they come up that I want to maximise the frequency.

I am a big believer in having the 5-5s bid naturally, but allowing the artificial jumps to be 4-6 or 4-7. Part of their 'goodness' comes from partner knowing what to do at his turn, and he's going to assume 4-5.

Our simple overcalls DID still contain some 4-5 hands; 1C-2D was NF so had to be limited strength, with a strong 4-5 we started with 1D intending to reverse. With the cuebids you have room to fit in more than one strength range especially over the minors.

I was always a bit surprised, however, that Overcall Structure needed these: I used them in the context of simple overcalls promising 5 cards, such that 4-5s were easily lost after simple overcalls. If you allow a 1D overcall on 4-5 shape, and allow a 1M advance on 4, there is a bit less need for a 4-5 convention.

Quote

What you gain is very limited compared to what you lose imo. I'd rather give up the natural 1NT and play Raptor than give up all of this to keep my natural 1NT overcall.

One reason I put two hand-shapes into the cuebid was so lost fewer of the weak jump shifts.

I would certainly be willing to consider giving up a natural 1NT overcall to handle more of the 4-5s (if you didn't have to specify both suits for it to be GCC) before I would be willing to give up three or more weak jumps.

[mikestar13]

Kungsgeten, on 2013-July-15, 09:17, said:

Be sure to check out Canapé Jump Overcalls, if you haven't already. http://viewsfromtheb...p-overcall.html

Basically a jump to 2M shows 4 cards in the suit bid and a 5+ minor.

Lovely method but can't play it here (ACBL) because of stupid system restrictions--suit bids other than cues of enemy suit that show 2 suiters must specify both suits. In a more enlightened bridge jurisdiction (such as you own), I'd be quite pleased with this.

[mikestar13]

Siegmund, on 2013-July-15, 23:01, said:

<snip>


I used them in the context of simple overcalls promising 5 cards, such that 4-5s were easily lost after simple overcalls. If you allow a 1D overcall on 4-5 shape, and allow a 1M advance on 4, there is a bit less need for a 4-5 convention.

</snip>

Maybe this is the best answer. Allowing 4 card major advances over the 1♦/1♥ overcalls covers all cases after (1♣) and all cases after (1♦) except the 2♣ overcall--this already cuts the problem down quite a bit.

[rbforster]

mikestar13, on 2013-July-16, 17:14, said:

Lovely method but can't play it here (ACBL) because of stupid system restrictions--suit bids other than cues of enemy suit that show 2 suiters must specify both suits.

Well, 4 card major jump overcalls are still natural and allowed, so then its just a question of arguing about the negative inferences of your non-jump overcalls and 1m-2m as either long major (multi).

[Free]

Have you looked at FREEWILL overcalls? It's a complete alternative which allows you to overcall with 4-4's (so also 4-5, 5-4, 5-5,...)

[Kungsgeten]

mikestar13, on 2013-July-16, 17:14, said:

Lovely method but can't play it here (ACBL) because of stupid system restrictions--suit bids other than cues of enemy suit that show 2 suiters must specify both suits. In a more enlightened bridge jurisdiction (such as you own), I'd be quite pleased with this.

If overcalling a minor, both suits are known (so this would be legal). If they open 1H however, jumping to 2S, the minor is unknown (the same is true after 1S-2H, if you play this as canapé as Ulf suggests).

[PrecisionL]

Quote

Lovely method but can't play it here (ACBL) because of stupid system restrictions--suit bids other than cues of enemy suit that show 2 suiters must specify both suits. In a more enlightened bridge jurisdiction (such as you own), I'd be quite pleased with this.

Well, 2NT jump Overcalls can be a 2-suited Overcall also with only one anchor suit.