[broze]

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Teams.

EDIT: CRAP. I had the vul the wrong way round!! EW non-vul otherwise WTP...

[mr1303]

I bid 2H when I held this hand. I'll comment later whether it was right or not.

[PhilKing]

I also held the hand and bid 2♥. 3♥ tells an opponent with three low hearts that they may have a good mesh (as was in fact the case). That's fine if we are able to compete further, but this hand is bound to disappoint.

[gnasher]

PhilKing, on 2013-August-21, 10:58, said:

I also held the hand and bid 2♥. 3♥ tells an opponent with three low hearts that they may have a good mesh (as was in fact the case). That's fine if we are able to compete further, but this hand is bound to disappoint.

Is that such a bad thing when we have ♠Q97 ? I'd be quite happy to see them reach 4♠ and misguess trumps.

[GreenMan]

No distributional assets, 7-9 HCP = 2♥.

[BillHiggin]

When you have that lovely 4333 shape, the total trick count needs to be reduced.

One of the most common mistakes I see intermediate/advanced players make is to make "law" bids with this shape (including super accepts of transfers as well)!

[Siegmund]

I would still try 3H favorable, knowing it is an overbid, to apply pressure - but at unfavorable, definitely sticking to the quiet 2H.

[Zelandakh]

Mentally reducing your trump count by one is often a good yardstick when holding a 4333 hand, regardless of whether a 3 or 4 card suit is the support. In this case, if 3♥ can be anything from 4 hearts with a singleton spade and out to the OP hand, partner has a real problem in advancing sensibly when holding a nice hand so there is even less incentive to go high.

I wonder if this might be a more interesting poll for alternative systems, such as one where a mixed raise is an option; after a Precision 1♥ opener; or after a 1♥ opener guaranteed to be unbalanced.

[PhilKing]

Siegmund, on 2013-August-21, 18:56, said:

I would still try 3H favorable, knowing it is an overbid, to apply pressure - but at unfavorable, definitely sticking to the quiet 2H.

On what basis is it an overbid?

[rhm]

PhilKing, on 2013-August-22, 05:33, said:

On what basis is it an overbid?

On the basis that your offense to defense ratio is poor. The heart honors are nice, but I would want a little bit more distribution for a preemptive raise, even at this vulnerability.
You mislead your partner in the sense that you give him too much encouragement to sacrifice against their game, which might be phantom or too expensive.
If he bids to make, dummy will be a disappointment most of the time.
But of course, it could also mislead opponents, but they are more likely to rely on their hands.

Rainer Herrmann

[PhilKing]

rhm, on 2013-August-22, 05:57, said:

On the basis that your offense to defense ratio is poor. The heart honors are nice, but I would want a little bit more distribution for a preemptive raise, even at this vulnerability.
You mislead your partner in the sense that you give him too much encouragement to sacrifice against their game, which might be phantom or too expensive.
If he bids to make, dummy will be a disappointment most of the time.
But of course, it could also mislead opponents, but they are more likely to rely on their hands.

Rainer Herrmann

You did get that I disagree with 3♥?

An overbid/underbid has nothing to do with your ratios - it is a measure of strength.

Here you have bad shape and dubious ODR, which makes it a misdescription rather than an overbid. For instance, if you took away the spade queen I would have no real problem with 3♥, though it would hardly be clearcut, and if partner sacs I would expect him to go for 800 exactly never.

[Lorne50]

I bid 2♥, but with 4432 shape I bid 3♥.

[rhm]

PhilKing, on 2013-August-22, 06:28, said:

You did get that I disagree with 3♥?

Yes ,surprised you asked this question thereafter. So I replied.

Quote

An overbid/underbid has nothing to do with your ratios - it is a measure of strength.

Here you have bad shape and dubious ODR, which makes it a misdescription rather than an overbid.

If your bid promises a high ODR and you have a low one I call this an overbid. But I do not mind if you prefer misdescription instead of overbid. Comes to the same difference IMHO.

Quote

For instance, if you took away the spade queen I would have no real problem with 3♥, though it would hardly be clearcut, and if partner sacs I would expect him to go for 800 exactly never..

I just tell you from experience. If your partner has one of those minimum hands now considered mandatory openings you might go for 800 in 3♥ already.
No LAW protects you. I am not claiming it is likely to happen, but if for example 1♠ overcaller can reopen with a DBL I would often pass with no ♠ fit, knowing modern tendencies.

How you find cheap saves, when your preemptive jump raises do not encourage your partners to take them at favorable colors I do not know.
Anyway, I would like your partners, who never go for 800...

As a side note: It is my impression that the recent success of the Kranyak team in the US owes a lot to their strategy of preferring to double and defend when these type of aggressive preemption occurred and their highly rated competitors did not. (I know the deals and the bidding were different)

Rainer Herrmann

[PhilKing]

rhm, on 2013-August-22, 08:08, said:

Anyway, I would like your partners, who never go for 800...

I said I would expect to go for 800 exactly never. The reality is obviously different ...

[wyman]

2H unless I have a mixed raise available (I usually don't), in which case I'll make it, despite my shape.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zelandakh, on 2013-August-22, 03:04, said:

I wonder if this might be a more interesting poll for alternative systems, such as one where a mixed raise is an option .....

What is the "mixed raise" bid for this hand ? ( I assume 2S! is the limit raise w/ 3 or 4 cards, and 3H the weak raise w/4 cards, and 2H = simple raise w/ 3 cards and ~ 6 - 9 hcp ) .

[mr1303]

My partner and I were playing limited openings in a strong club structure. I still only bid 2H.

[BillHiggin]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-August-22, 16:09, said:

What is the "mixed raise" bid for this hand ? ( I assume 2S! is the limit raise w/ 3 or 4 cards, and 3H the weak raise w/4 cards, and 2H = simple raise w/ 3 cards and ~ 6 - 9 hcp ) .

Some will use a variant of transfer advances in this auction. Then 2♦ (transfer to hearts) would be the mixed raise while 2♥ is weaker. Of course the conditions in the OP suggest that this is not an option!
Note that "transfer advances" does not exclusively refer to bids by "advancer".

What is wrong IMHO is any strategy that expects "law protection" at the three level.

[HeartA]

GreenMan, on 2013-August-21, 11:57, said:

No distributional assets, 7-9 HCP = 2♥.

agree.

[mike777]

3h at fav vul but can live with 2h....next hand pls, prefer pressure but ya 2h may win.

do I really need to win the match on this hand?