[UdcaDenny]

I opened 1D and opp bid weak 2H. My p bid 2S with KQJxxxx, K, 7, AQ10x and I passed with minimum 11p. Wouldnt it be better if he doubled first with good hand and then bid S. What is standard bidding in sayc ? In Sweden most take 2S as nonforcing.

[Cyberyeti]

2♠ would default to forcing here in the UK.

[EricK]

Most play this as forcing, and I believe it is much better. Note that if you are forced to double on any strong hand then you might only get to show what you have at a high level. eg 1♦ (2♥) X (P) 3♣. And now advancer only gets to show ♠ at the 3 level. While this is OK here because his suit is so good, suppose he only had 5 of them? It is much better to be able to explore the right game (or slam) starting at a low level. The ability to stop in 2♠ (or 3m) is a small target after the opponent's pre-empt.

[Free]

Definitely forcing for me

[mikeh]

It sounds as if the OP is used to playing negative free bids and his partner is not. So it was a partnership issue where they were playing different methods.

The vast majority of the bridge world play 2♠ as forcing, and would double then bid spades with a weaker hand with long spades, too weak to force. However, some excellent players like negative free bids...so the answer is to discuss it with partner. In 'standard' in most places it is forcing.

[oberiko]

I'd take it as forcing as well. Asides from our general agreement that any constructive new suit is forcing, we also agree on what minimum strength we need to have in the partnership for each level (1 = 19, 2 = 22, 3 = 25 etc.). In this case, since the responder is forcing to the 3-level, it would convey 13+ HCP.

[mgoetze]

UdcaDenny, on 2013-August-17, 02:48, said:

What is standard bidding in sayc ?

In SAYC, 2♠ is forcing.

Quote

In Sweden most take 2S as nonforcing.

Same in Germany, much to my dismay.

[the hog]

I play -ve free bids with my partners, so it would be nf. However the default is forcing.

[aguahombre]

Just out of curiosity: in Sweden and Germany what are the alerting requirements for NFB's and the corollary negative double followed by a forcing spade bid?

And how does responder with merely invitational values distinguish between those and the game force hands with long Spades ---especially when the first time they introduce the suit might well be at the 3-level?

[mgoetze]

aguahombre, on 2013-August-17, 20:07, said:

Just out of curiosity: in Sweden and Germany what are the alerting requirements for NFB's and the corollary negative double followed by a forcing spade bid?

Playing without screens, alerting doubles is prohibited.

Without going into a rant about how incomprehensible German alert regulations are, a nonforcing 2♠ bid would not be alerted, whereas a forcing 2♠ bid probably would be alerted by most who play it. I have been advised by top German TDs that it doesn't matter that I don't understand the alert regulations as there is no penalty for extraneous alerts, therefore I alert it.

Quote

And how does responder with merely invitational values distinguish between those and the game force hands with long Spades ---especially when the first time they introduce the suit might well be at the 3-level?

I wouldn't know, I refuse to play NFB (over wide-ranging 1-level openings) whenever possible.

[Zelandakh]

mgoetze, on 2013-August-17, 21:02, said:

Without going into a rant about how incomprehensible German alert regulations are, a nonforcing 2♠ bid would not be alerted, whereas a forcing 2♠ bid probably would be alerted by most who play it. I have been advised by top German TDs that it doesn't matter that I don't understand the alert regulations as there is no penalty for extraneous alerts, therefore I alert it.

Ack, another area where I seem to be alerting incorrectly. I have been playing NFBs in certain auctions for a while in Germany and alerting them religiously. After the explanation, opps tend to nod sagely and continue. Noone has ever said anything about this being normal here or not requiring an alert.

[gnasher]

Zelandakh, on 2013-August-20, 07:51, said:

Ack, another area where I seem to be alerting incorrectly. I have been playing NFBs in certain auctions for a while in Germany and alerting them religiously. After the explanation, opps tend to nod sagely and continue. Noone has ever said anything about this being normal here or not requiring an alert.

Perhaps they just have good manners? Lecturing a visitor from overseas about a harmless breach of the alerting rules wouldn't be very welcoming.

[Phil]

mikeh, on 2013-August-17, 08:09, said:

It sounds as if the OP is used to playing negative free bids and his partner is not. So it was a partnership issue where they were playing different methods.

The vast majority of the bridge world play 2♠ as forcing, and would double then bid spades with a weaker hand with long spades, too weak to force. However, some excellent players like negative free bids...so the answer is to discuss it with partner. In 'standard' in most places it is forcing.

Does anyone really play NFB's over preempts?

[jallerton]

aguahombre, on 2013-August-17, 20:07, said:

Just out of curiosity: in Sweden and Germany what are the alerting requirements for NFB's and the corollary negative double followed by a forcing spade bid?

In Sweden, a change of suit is assumed to be natural and forcing (whether in competition or not) if not alerted, so alert non-forcing bids in a new suit.

In Sweden, like Germany, doubles should not be alerted whatever they mean.

[mgoetze]

gnasher, on 2013-August-21, 03:31, said:

Perhaps they just have good manners? Lecturing a visitor from overseas about a harmless breach of the alerting rules wouldn't be very welcoming.

I can guarantee you that the people in Zel's club have no idea what the alert regulations actually are.

[Codo]

I doubt that 1♦ (2♦ 2♠ is non forcing in Germany.

I bet that around 70% play it non forcing over 1 ♥ (2♦) but around 90 % play it forcing over the given auction...