[Vampyr]

 32519, on 2013-October-13, 10:41, said:

Let's start small.
1. We have been studying for umpteen years how bees make honey. Has anyone managed to replicate the process yet?
2. Bird's Nest Soup is very popular in places like China. Has anyone managed to replicate the process yet?
Both of these should surely be within man's grasp by now? After all we have been around for the last 100,000 years and the top of the food chain.

What are you on, and where can I get some of that?

[Trinidad]

 Vampyr, on 2013-October-13, 11:27, said:

What are you on, and where can I get some of that?

Wrong question. You mean: "How can mankind make that?"



Rik

[kenberg]

Speaking on condition of anonymity because I have not been authorized to speak for the human race (I learned this phrasing from reading newspapers) I concede that bees are superior to man in the making of honey.

[hrothgar]

 32519, on 2013-October-13, 10:41, said:

Let's start small.
1. We have been studying for umpteen years how bees make honey. Has anyone managed to replicate the process yet?
2. Bird's Nest Soup is very popular in places like China. Has anyone managed to replicate the process yet?
Both of these should surely be within man's grasp by now? After all we have been around for the last 100,000 years and the top of the food chain.

Both these probably are within man's grasp. It's just not cost effective to do so.

If we want to go to extreme's, biologists are at the point where they can build DNA and RNA sequences from scratch and insert these into cell.
Nano engineers are able to build structures out of individual atoms.

If you're willing to spend enough time and effort, there's not much on the small scale that human's can create.

With this said and done, there's really no good reason to launch a modern day Manhattan project to make our own bird ***** when its easy enough to start farming chimney swifts...

[billw55]

 awm, on 2013-October-13, 09:59, said:

once you accept that not everything in the book is literal divine truth, it is easy to reject more and more of it

I think you have identified the biggest reason for fundamentalism. Any variance from the rigid dogma is very threatening, frightening even, because it might well be followed by more variances. Thus such thoughts must be suppressed.

[Vampyr]

What are you trying to say about honey, 325, that because we cannot make it for ourselves God must have put bees on earth to provide us with honey? As an explanation for the variety and complexity and indeed, beauty of the life on our planet, this explanation is just so banal. Whereas the real story...I don't know how others feel about it, but it takes my breath away.

[blackshoe]

 kenberg, on 2013-October-13, 14:15, said:

Speaking on condition of anonymity because I have not been authorized to speak for the human race (I learned this phrasing from reading newspapers) I concede that bees are superior to man in the making of honey.

I think the proper phrasing of that should be something like "Speaking on condition of anonymity because I'll be reprimanded if my boss finds out I told you anything…"

[kenberg]

 blackshoe, on 2013-October-13, 20:02, said:

I think the proper phrasing of that should be something like "Speaking on condition of anonymity because I'll be reprimanded if my boss finds out I told you anything…"

Or maybe "Speaking on condition of anonymity because I haven't a clue about what we are talking about". Something about bees and God.

[mike777]

I understand it is not unusual for atheists to believe in life after death.

[blackshoe]

 mike777, on 2013-October-13, 20:38, said:

I understand it is not unusual for atheists to believe in life after death.

On that, as Heinlein said, soon enough we will know, so why worry about it?

[mike777]

 blackshoe, on 2013-October-13, 20:56, said:

On that, as Heinlein said, soon enough we will know, so why worry about it?

I love love Heinlein....yet as a human ya I worry....


Time Enough for Love?

[32519]

 mikeh, on 2013-October-13, 09:54, said:

Here is a nugget of information that won't mean thing to the torll, despite its last question: in 'nature' the coldest temperature is the level of the background cosmic radiation, left over from the big bang (incidentally the detection of this background radiation had been predicted by the theory of the big bang so its detection was further confirmation of the provisional validity thereof). However, scientists have produced temperatures, in labs, far lower than this. So 'man' has been able to 'go beyond' nature in at least one aspect of reality.

Mike, Mike, Mike!!!!
I'm really worried about you. In what way has this benefitted the top predator in any way? But the worst part of your post? We're back to this stupid BIG BANG theory which is flawed in its very reasoning.

[32519]

 mikeh, on 2013-October-11, 16:35, said:

You're obviously an irredeemable troll: please return to the village that is missing its idiot, and don't bother me anymore.

MikeH: I am really concerned about you. You are obsessed in your self-denial about the possible existence of a super-natural being. Yet from the type of books which you are so carefully selecting to read, it has to be obvious to all that you are seeking answers about the unknown. Thus far you have expressed virtually no opinion of your own in this thread. Instead you keep regurgitating other people’s theories/arguments which you have gleaned from the books you are reading. The wall which you are cowering behind is already frighteningly high. And you have given it a very convenient name: Atheist/Atheism!

At what level is your disappointment gauge already standing after every new book read, and still no progress has been made towards answering your self-denial? This thread has already pointed two flaws in the current consensus. The same goes for this years Nobel Prize awarded. The model has a flaw. And still no break-through after throwing billions at the project?

Suppose a worldwide poll was held in which every one of the 7 billion plus inhabitants was forced to participate. The question on the ballot paper is this:
HOW DO YOU BELIEVE THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING IN IT ORIGINATED?
Voters are given the following two choices –
1. It all started with a BIG BANG 14 500 000 000 years ago
2. It came about at the hands of a super-natural being
How do you believe the vote will go? You may easily end up with a situation where the number of spoilt ballot papers outnumbers 1 & 2 combined. How do you think option 1 is going to fare?

I got some good news for you. It matters not how high you build your wall, people like myself will become taller so that we can peek over the top and see what you are up to on the other side. I have no idea how many have come before me who have thrown you a life-line to pull you out of the cesspool of self-denial that you find yourself in. The choice is still yours; to eventually sink away altogether or pull yourself out.

In my early twenties I was trapped in a very similar situation to the one you are now in. I too rejected outright the possible existence of a super-natural being. I too was carefully selecting the books and newspaper articles which I was reading to back up my self-denial. I too was engaging believers in all sorts of arguments; if there is a God why does he allow all this misery and inequality and diseases and rape and murder and whatever you care to name?

Everything changed for me in my late twenties when I began having identical recurring nightmares over a period of 18 months or so. Everything in the nightmare was always exactly the same. I would be trying to get out of bed to go to the bathroom, but something which I can only describe as a formless black weight, pinned me down in my bed. So I would start fighting this thing. The fight would continue until I was totally exhausted and no longer had any energy left to fight. The moment I stopped fighting, this formless black weight would start taking shape. The fear that took hold of me at this point is impossible to describe. I found myself calling upon the very God who I had totally rejected as being real, to come and drive this thing away. Always at this point of the nightmare, a light would appear to my right, the formless black weight to the left with myself in the middle. A tug-of-war ensued, and as soon as my plea for help became desperate enough, the light would fill the nightmare and I would wake up, drenched in perspiration. Once awake I would barely even mutter a “Thank You,” before dismissing the whole incident as nothing more than a nightmare. The problem here was this nightmare continued for 18 months, and each time it was identical in every aspect. It slowly began dawning on me that God was reaching out to me. When I realised that, I cut a deal with him in my complete ignorance. I am too embarrassed to share the details of that deal, but it boiled down to: “God, if you will do this for me, I will return to you and your church.” God kept his side of the deal and now I was faced with the dilemma of upholding my side of it. I hadn’t seen the inside of a church for maybe 10 years and was afraid to return alone. So I called my sister and her husband and asked them if I could join them the next Sunday. And so I took a first step. We could have sat anywhere in the church but chose a seat on the extreme left (call it hiding in the shadows if that were in any way possible). Now this church had a crucifix in the front with Jesus hanging on it, his face turned to the right. You already know what’s coming. Every time I looked up at the preacher, it was impossible to avert the crucifix. Every time I looked up, it was as though Jesus hanging on the crucifix was looking straight at me. I left the service desperately trying not to show any emotion. I got through two sermons with my sister and her church before giving up on them. Why? Rookie that I was, I was incredibly uncomfortable with the things that this church does. But I still had my side of the deal to uphold. I felt a prompting to go back to the church I frequented as a youngster. So the following Sunday I found myself with the Presbyterians. The minister’s sermon that Sunday? He presented the parable of the lost son. Again I found myself choking back my emotions as I felt that the entire sermon was for me. Was it just a coincidence? You decide. The following day (Monday) I relocated to a new job in the town where I currently still reside. To spare you too much further agony in reading this, I joined a church here and became quite active in it until the late 1990s. It was when I started doing my own research into the stuff of the Bible, and digging up all sorts of things, that I became more and more disappointed with institutionalised religion. Much of what they do and preach has no Biblical foundation whatsoever. I left institutionalised religion for good at the end to the 1990s.

The beauty and simplicity of God’s plan and purpose with us is so mind boggling that even the Jews who brought us this incredible story, rejected it.

So I am inviting you to take your first step as well. Start with something that won’t threaten you in any way e.g. make a printout of the link higher up in this thread and watch the Matrix movie again. Invite Vampyr to join you. Her wall is starting to up at a pace that anyone in the construction industry would be envious to match. The two of you can start your search together. Vampyr is going to escape from behind the wall before you? Why is that? Answer: Her wall is not (yet) as high as yours, so she doesn’t have as far to climb to get out.

God bless you my brother. Until we meet (and we will meet because God has guaranteed it; how it takes place is our decision). I have started asking my God to remove the scales from your eyes so that you can see him as well.

[gwnn]

mikeh sure doesn't look arrogant/condescending now heh?

[mikeh]

Yeah,, verily, I have seen the light, and I am saved!!! Rejoice!!







I finally discovered a use for the 'ignore user' function so this thread's troll is now invisible to me

Sort of an analogue for the troll's view of reality.

[hrothgar]

 32519, on 2013-October-13, 23:22, said:

Everything changed for me in my late twenties when I began having identical recurring nightmares over a period of 18 months or so. Everything in the nightmare was always exactly the same. I would be trying to get out of bed to go to the bathroom, but something which I can only describe as a formless black weight, pinned me down in my bed. So I would start fighting this thing. The fight would continue until I was totally exhausted and no longer had any energy left to fight. The moment I stopped fighting, this formless black weight would start taking shape. The fear that took hold of me at this point is impossible to describe. I found myself calling upon the very God who I had totally rejected as being real, to come and drive this thing away. Always at this point of the nightmare, a light would appear to my right, the formless black weight to the left with myself in the middle. A tug-of-war ensued, and as soon as my plea for help became desperate enough, the light would fill the nightmare and I would wake up, drenched in perspiration.

I like the version where you were molested by cultists better...

[Winstonm]

 mikeh, on 2013-October-14, 01:20, said:

I finally discovered a use for the 'ignore user' function so this thread's troll is now invisible to me

What's the matter Mike, afraid to learn about the bangs and the bees?

[WellSpyder]

 Scarabin, on 2013-October-11, 00:48, said:

I wonder if only two posters really enjoy these debates, one spewing pop science, the other pop religion?

Actually, although I don't think I have ever participated in these debates, I find them very interesting to read, even though my own views won't be changing any time soon. Sure, this thread has got rather out of hand with posts from one particular source apparently revealing a complete lack of understanding of how science explains the world around us, but putting that contribution to one side there is a lot that I find worth reading.

[gwnn]

(disclaimer: I admit that I have not read every single post in this thread and that the below is possibly distorting facts somewhat and I'm ready to recant/modify the below, but anyway, here goes:)

It seems to me the religious moderates or sympathisers thereof in this thread have spent a great deal of time arguing against the points raised by Sam Harris and Mike H. but have done little to counter the never-ending drivel our religious fundamentalist 32519 or to try to make him participate in less pseudoscientific rhetoric and more dialogue with us. I have seen mikeh being regarded as arrogant etc but no one from the religious moderates said anything bad about 32519. This seems to be very reminiscent to what Sam Harris decries. Moderates themselves would never say things like

someone upthread said:

I got some good news for you. It matters not how high you build your wall, people like myself will become taller so that we can peek over the top and see what you are up to on the other side. I have no idea how many have come before me who have thrown you a life-line to pull you out of the cesspool of self-denial that you find yourself in. The choice is still yours; to eventually sink away altogether or pull yourself out.

because they know how arrogant, threatening and meaningless it sounds. Yet they fail to instruct their fundamentalist brothers on this. They often just sit in the corner and shrug. Uncle Tony is drunk again, what can you do? Tomorrow he will sober up, maybe then we can talk to him. But these Uncle Tonies are fully aware and proud of how drunk they are and they rejoice in how unlikely it is that they will ever sober up. And they definitely miss all the shrugs and embarrassed looks around them and take their relatives' silence as tacit approval.

[Vampyr]

 gwnn, on 2013-October-14, 06:02, said:

(disclaimer: I admit that I have not read every single post in this thread and that the below is possibly distorting facts somewhat and I'm ready to recant/modify the below, but anyway, here goes:)

It seems to me the religious moderates or sympathisers thereof in this thread have spent a great deal of time arguing against the points raised by Sam Harris and Mike H. but have done little to counter the never-ending drivel our religious fundamentalist 32519 or to try to make him participate in less pseudoscientific rhetoric and more dialogue with us. I have seen mikeh being regarded as arrogant etc but no one from the religious moderates said anything bad about 32519. This seems to be very reminiscent to what Sam Harris decries. Moderates themselves would never say things like
because they know how arrogant, threatening and meaningless it sounds. Yet they fail to instruct their fundamentalist brothers on this. They often just sit in the corner and shrug. Uncle Tony is drunk again, what can you do? Tomorrow he will sober up, maybe then we can talk to him. But these Uncle Tonies are fully aware and proud of how drunk they are and they rejoice in how unlikely it is that they will ever sober up. And they definitely miss all the shrugs and embarrassed looks around them and take their relatives' silence as tacit approval.

The problem is that fundamentalists form a kind of buffer zone for moderates. As long as the former are there spewing their nonsense, the latter are "safe". If the moderates attack the excesses of the fundies, and even make them see sense, then the moderates will be next in the "line of fire" of nonbelievers and believers who nonetheless do not approve of religion. This may be one reason why Harris and the late Christopher Hitchens directed a great deal of their criticism at moderates. They are a really big part of the problem, although those who have not thought about it much tend to assume otherwise. (By "problem" I mean not just the dangers and threats of fundamentalism, but also other consequences of magical thinking.)