[Redbird44]

I am looking for thoughts, comments, and or observations about the following that transpired during a Speedball tournament: Here is a link to the hand --> http://tinyurl.com/mdvpg54
I was trying to continue to play while the discussion continued but I was declarer and had trouble dealing concurrently, with both trains of thought. Needless to say, this hand was the beginning of a terrible tournament result! Although I don't claim to know much about the rules, this unwillingness to remedy what was (at least from my perspective), obvious damage, seemed a bit unfair to me.

Bidding-- W 1c .... N pass . . .E 1nt . . . S pass . . . West 3nt

I lead a spade and immediately noticed that W had 5 spades (A 10 9 7 2)
I called the director saying this: "Please look at the bidding for this hand"
ACBL_TD (Private): which board?
→ACBL_TD: this one
ACBL_TD (Private): Ok, I can't see  or discuss the board until completed.
ACBL_TD (Private): will review then
→ACBL_TD: ok ty
bronco_fan→Table: should have hit 1 s but might work out well
→ACBL_TD: bidding caused me to lead unfavorably
ACBL_TD (Private): There's no recourse for misclicks.
→ACBL_TD: Misclick?
ACBL_TD (Private): bronco_fan→Table: should have hit 1 s but might work out well
ACBL_TD (Private): he meant to bid 1♠,  either way - psych, misclick, all the same.
bronco_fan→Table: play please
ACBL_TD (Private): We only review for damage IF it's an agreement not disclosed.
ACBL_TD (Private): Or IF someone psyches a conventional opening or response.
bronco_fan→Table: time
→ACBL_TD: so its ok to post a card that says 2/1 or sayc and then NOT open with a 5 card major?
ACBL_TD (Private): if not habitual, yes....
ACBL_TD (Private): but as you saw from his comment, he made a mistake
→ACBL_TD: last time i did it . . . i was penalized
ACBL_TD (Private): His partner didn't know any more or any less than you did, so there's no issue
→ACBL_TD: but no worries
bronco_fan→Table: is there something wrong too slow
ACBL_TD (Private): I cannot comment on what you were penalized for...and if it was a convention that you psyched/misclicked on, then yes you would have received an adjusted score.
→ACBL_TD: as i said before no worries
→ACBL_TD: Not sure why you would say if it was a convention
ACBL_TD (Private): from the ACBL GCC: Not allowed: 2. Psyching of artificial or conventional opening bids and/or conventionalresponses thereto
ACBL_TD (Private): if they opened 1♣ instead of 1♠, misclick or psyche is allowed b/c it's not a conventional opening.
→ACBL_TD: so its according to that then it's not ok to open 1c with a 5 card major
→ACBL_TD: misclick
→ACBL_TD: or not
→ACBL_TD: there was damage
ACBL_TD (Private): No, ,according to that it IS allowed.
ACBL_TD (Private): 1♣ is not a convention
ACBL_TD (Private): 1♠ opener is not a convention
ACBL_TD (Private): therefore allowed.
ACBL_TD (Private): If they opened 2♣ by accident /psych (which is a convention) -- it is NOT allowed.
→ACBL_TD: no but 2/1 is a system that does not allow for a minor opening when a 5 card major exists
ACBL_TD (Private): It doesn't say SYSTEM
ACBL_TD (Private): it says convention
→ACBL_TD: lol
→ACBL_TD: I am going to copy this conversation and paste it on the forum to see how others think about it |66
ACBL_TD (Private): Sure |66
ACBL_TD (Private): Psyches are part of the game.
ACBL_TD (Private): And misclicks online even more so.
ACBL_TD (Private): http://www.acbl.org/...ntion-Chart.pdf
→ACBL_TD: ok fine
ACBL_TD (Private): All I ask if posting is that you include the whole conversation |66
ACBL_TD (Private): And the hand |66
→ACBL_TD: The hand is not relevant
→ACBL_TD: only your statements
→ACBL_TD: i would like to finish the rest of this tournament
→ACBL_TD: without interruptions
ACBL_TD (Private): Sure |66 then pls stop talking to me also, as I was only responding as supposed to, to your inquiries.
→ACBL_TD: yes i agree but for some reason you are continuing on

This post has been edited by Gerardo: 2013-December-08, 22:36
Reason for edit: Removed specific ACBL TD number

[wyman]

Welcome to the forums!
The director is 100% right and gave a pretty clear explanation of what the rules are -- far better than i might have done in chat while directing a speedball! You were damaged, but there was no infraction, hence no redress.

But if you have specific questions about the rules, the forums are a great place to ask. Ask away!

[Vampyr]

BBO should be able to keep an automated record of psyches/misclicks (on the opening bid, anyway) to check for CPUs and habitual occurrences.

[gordontd]

I think you were lucky to get a TD who knew their stuff and was very patient with you. I suggest you read Law 40C.

[Cascade]

I agree with everything the director did. However I would not treat a misclick of a conventional bid as if it were a psyche and thus illegal. Since a psyche is "deliberate" and a misclick is not and therefore should not be subject to an illegal psyche ruling.

Basically

1. "damage" is not enough;
2. "an infraction" is not enough.

We need both together and even then it may not necessarily be enough to warrant an adjustment. The damage must be caused by the infraction.

In this case the mistaken bid of 1♣ is not an infraction. People make mistakes. Most of the time they work to the disadvantage of the player, occasionally they work to that player's advantage. This is similar to the golf concept of "rub of the green" - a good shot can get an unlucky bounce and a bad shot can get a lucky bounce. These things happen - just accept it.

[Vampyr]

Cascade, on 2013-December-03, 04:46, said:

I agree with everything the director did. However I would not treat a misclick of a conventional bid as if it were a psyche and thus illegal. Since a psyche is "deliberate" and a misclick is not and therefore should not be subject to an illegal psyche ruling.

It seems to me that things that cannot be proven either way should be treated the same.

[broze]

Vampyr, on 2013-December-03, 04:53, said:

It seems to me that things that cannot be proven either way should be treated the same.

Well, it is up to the director to ascertain whether it is a psyche or a misclick. It seems pretty clear to me that misclicks should be treated in the same way as mechanical errors at the table (also on occasion indistinguishable from psyches) apart from the fact they are never retractable.

[Vampyr]

broze, on 2013-December-03, 05:11, said:

Well, it is up to the director to ascertain whether it is a psyche or a misclick. It seems pretty clear to me that misclicks should be treated in the same way as mechanical errors at the table (also on occasion indistinguishable from psyches) apart from the fact they are never retractable.

Perhaps they should be.

[billw55]

To the OP: I second wyman, welcome.

The director's ruling and explanation were both correct. However as gordontd suggests, this is not always the case, so feel free to ask here.

However, arguing with the director when you think he is wrong, is not a good idea. Best practice is to request a ruling; get a ruling; and accept that ruling without further comment. Further discussion is very unlikely to persuade director to change the ruling. Meanwhile it slows down play at your table, and takes up director's time to no purpose, when he has other duties to perform.

[Vampyr]

billw55, on 2013-December-03, 07:30, said:

To the OP: I second wyman, welcome.

The director's ruling and explanation were both correct. However as gordontd suggests, this is not always the case, so feel free to ask here.

However, arguing with the director when you think he is wrong, is not a good idea. Best practice is to request a ruling; get a ruling; and accept that ruling without further comment. Further discussion is very unlikely to persuade director to change the ruling. Meanwhile it slows down play at your table, and takes up director's time to no purpose, when he has other duties to perform.

What is the appeal procedure in BBO ACBL tournaments? (Asking out of general curiosity; obviously the director's ruling in this case was correct)

[ArtK78]

Vampyr, on 2013-December-03, 07:48, said:

What is the appeal procedure in BBO ACBL tournaments? (Asking out of general curiosity; obviously the director's ruling in this case was correct)

To the best of my knowledge, there is none. The TD's decision is final. I suppose the TD could consult with other TDs if he or she believes it is necessary, but I don't believe it is required.

[Vampyr]

ArtK78, on 2013-December-03, 09:03, said:

To the best of my knowledge, there is none. The TD's decision is final. I suppose the TD could consult with other TDs if he or she believes it is necessary, but I don't believe it is required.

It is required, and at the player's request, not because the TD thinks it is necessary. See L92.

[PhilKing]

billw55, on 2013-December-03, 07:30, said:

To the OP: I second wyman, welcome.

The director's ruling and explanation were both correct. However as gordontd suggests, this is not always the case, so feel free to ask here.

However, arguing with the director when you think he is wrong, is not a good idea. Best practice is to request a ruling; get a ruling; and accept that ruling without further comment. Further discussion is very unlikely to persuade director to change the ruling. Meanwhile it slows down play at your table, and takes up director's time to no purpose, when he has other duties to perform.

I agree with all this in any game, but would add that asking for a ruling in a speedball is the height of folly and doubtless detracted from the enjoyment of those hoping for a nice quick game.

No doubt I will be told I am rude for saying this, but I think it is particularly rude to reject the ruling when one knows one does not know the rules. However, OP did ask for comments and observations, so here they are!

[ArtK78]

Vampyr, on 2013-December-03, 09:17, said:

It is required, and at the player's request, not because the TD thinks it is necessary. See L92.

I sent a question about the appeals procedure (and whether there is one) to the ACBL section on BBO. I will post the response when I get it.

[paulg]

Vampyr, on 2013-December-03, 09:17, said:

It is required, and at the player's request, not because the TD thinks it is necessary. See L92.

L93A seems to give the TD the necessary power, especially online.

However I'm sure you can also appeal to the RA through acbl@bridgebase.com.

[Redbird44]

Thank you to all who responed This is a great way to learn the ropes!

I was confused primarily by distinction the director made between deviating from a bidding system and deviating from a convention. I understand now, that the time I mentioned in the post, when I was penalized for a similar infraction during a speedball tournament, was most certainly because of a convention that I bid incorrectly. However, I still do not understand why there would be a difference, as in both circumstances the ops are mislead. Perhaps someone could explain that to me?

[Vampyr]

Redbird44, on 2013-December-03, 15:29, said:

I was confused primarily by distinction the director made between deviating from a bidding system and deviating from a convention. I understand now, that the time I mentioned in the post, when I was penalized for a similar infraction during a speedball tournament, was most certainly because of a convention that I bid incorrectly. However, I still do not understand why there would be a difference, as in both circumstances the ops are misled. Perhaps someone could explain that to me?

The difference is not clear to me. The ACBL are the only national organisation that prohibit psyching of all conventions on the first round of the bidding (I think that the ban is limited to opening bid and response), although I think that some NOs prohibit psyching of your strongest opening bid (if this bid is artificial, such as 2♣ or a strong 1♣).

[barmar]

Redbird44, on 2013-December-03, 15:29, said:

Thank you to all who responed This is a great way to learn the ropes!

I was confused primarily by distinction the director made between deviating from a bidding system and deviating from a convention. I understand now, that the time I mentioned in the post, when I was penalized for a similar infraction during a speedball tournament, was most certainly because of a convention that I bid incorrectly. However, I still do not understand why there would be a difference, as in both circumstances the ops are mislead. Perhaps someone could explain that to me?

The Laws allow psychic bidding in general. The opponents will always be misled by them, that's the whole point. As long as partner is also misled, it's fair to the opponents.

But certain types of psyches are considered more destructive. When someone makes an artificial opening, especially strong ones like standard 2♣ and Precision 1♣, it's hard for the opponents to compete unless they have extra shape.

Also, until the most recent revision of the Laws, RAs were only allowed to regulate conventional bids, not natural bids. ACBL took advantage of this to prohibit certain conventional psyches, but they couldn't do anything about natural psyches.

[billw55]

Redbird44, on 2013-December-03, 15:29, said:

Thank you to all who responed This is a great way to learn the ropes!

I was confused primarily by distinction the director made between deviating from a bidding system and deviating from a convention. I understand now, that the time I mentioned in the post, when I was penalized for a similar infraction during a speedball tournament, was most certainly because of a convention that I bid incorrectly. However, I still do not understand why there would be a difference, as in both circumstances the ops are mislead. Perhaps someone could explain that to me?

The rules often confuse me too. Particularly with regard to bidding regulations, they seem very .. arbitrary, with different rules applied by different organizations. You should not expect them to always make sense. Spend a few minutes browsing the laws and rulings forums here, and you will see that even experienced players and directors do not always agree.

[CanadaGrl]

" For the purposes of ACBL sanctioned tournaments on BBO, the director's decision is final. There is no mechanism for appealing a ruling" Is copied from the "old" BBO ACBL Speedball Tournament Description.