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How to bid this hand

#1 User is offline   NicebutDim 

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Posted 2014-April-18, 08:56

You pick up this hand:
♠ A K Q J
♥ A K Q 8 4
♦ K 8
♣ Q 4
Playing a natural bidding system, how do you plan to bid it?
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#2 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2014-April-18, 09:46

I hate opening 2 with two suited hands. This time, I need to

1. With a prime 24 count, there is too much chance that the hand with get passed out in 1
2. Partner will almost certainly bid 2D waiting over my 2 opening. I'll be able to show hearts at the two level and then show spades.
3. If partner bids 2N or 3m, we're going to slam

Expected auction

2 - 2
2 - 3
3 - 4

Maybe

2 - 2
2 - 3N
4N
Alderaan delenda est
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#3 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2014-April-18, 09:53

I'm not sure what counts as a "natural bidding system" in this context. Clearly the hand should start with a forcing opening such as 2. After that is less clear, but basically you must decide if you are going to describe this hand as balanced (continuing with NT) or unbalanced (continuing with hearts). I would choose the latter.
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#4 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2014-April-18, 11:02

View Postbillw55, on 2014-April-18, 09:53, said:

I'm not sure what counts as a "natural bidding system" in this context. Clearly the hand should start with a forcing opening such as 2. After that is less clear, but basically you must decide if you are going to describe this hand as balanced (continuing with NT) or unbalanced (continuing with hearts). I would choose the latter.



Kind of dumb out of context, I agree.




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#5 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-April-18, 11:47

Agree with Richard/hrothgar, except that I'm quite comfortable with the 2 opener.
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#6 User is offline   NicebutDim 

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Posted 2014-April-18, 12:18

I meant a fairly standard 5-card major system, without too many gadgets.
If opener bids 2H over 2C, would partner expect a 6-card suit? If so, would a 2nt rebid be better?
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#7 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2014-April-18, 12:48

View PostNicebutDim, on 2014-April-18, 12:18, said:

I meant a fairly standard 5-card major system, without too many gadgets.
If opener bids 2H over 2C, would partner expect a 6-card suit? If so, would a 2nt rebid be better?

If opener's rebid after 2-2 is 2, responder should assume a 5 card suit.

Quite frankly, the 2 rebid has been known to be made on 4 cards, typically with 4441 distribution.

On this particular hand, it would not be totally outrageous to rebid 2NT, but I would rebid 2.
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#8 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2014-April-18, 18:50

2C opening and then continuations depend on partner's responses. After 2D, 2H.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#9 User is offline   NicebutDim 

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Posted 2014-April-19, 02:03

View Postthe hog, on 2014-April-18, 18:50, said:

2C opening and then continuations depend on partner's responses. After 2D, 2H.


Suppose partner gives the weakest possible response in your system. Does this affect how you bid the hand?
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#10 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2014-April-19, 02:24

View PostNicebutDim, on 2014-April-19, 02:03, said:

Suppose partner gives the weakest possible response in your system. Does this affect how you bid the hand?

It would certainly create a problem if that weakest possible response happens to be 2
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#11 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2014-April-19, 05:32

i treat my hand as a balanced game force. we will often have exactly 4 losers and i have what look like 9 winners.

i hear it's still possible to find a fit after showing a balanced hand, but i certainly don't want to play 4h on a 53 fit. what would i be planning to ruff in dummy, my jack of spades?
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#12 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2014-April-19, 08:20

View Postwank, on 2014-April-19, 05:32, said:

i treat my hand as a balanced game force. we will often have exactly 4 losers and i have what look like 9 winners.

i hear it's still possible to find a fit after showing a balanced hand, but i certainly don't want to play 4h on a 53 fit. what would i be planning to ruff in dummy, my jack of spades?


So you want to be in 3N opposite xxx, Jxx, Qxxxx, xx ?

If you bid it as balanced it's an interesting question as to whether to show it as 4-4 or 3-5 in the majors when partner enquires.
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#13 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2014-April-19, 16:40

View PostNicebutDim, on 2014-April-19, 02:03, said:

Suppose partner gives the weakest possible response in your system. Does this affect how you bid the hand?


yes...I expect I may guess 3nt over a 2h response but there are other options.
2h=deny a or k but unlimited tiny points.
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#14 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2014-April-21, 06:20

View PostArtK78, on 2014-April-18, 12:48, said:

On this particular hand, it would not be totally outrageous to rebid 2NT, but I would rebid 2.

That's about what I was thinking. 2NT might have more appeal if puppet is on. Although clubs could still be wide open, when 4M is making on a 7 card fit.

My guess is, OP had a disagreement with partner between these two choices.
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#15 User is offline   NicebutDim 

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Posted 2014-April-21, 13:52

View Postbillw55, on 2014-April-21, 06:20, said:

That's about what I was thinking. 2NT might have more appeal if puppet is on. Although clubs could still be wide open, when 4M is making on a 7 card fit.

My guess is, OP had a disagreement with partner between these two choices.



At the table, the auction started
2c, 2d, 2h
At this point opener has promised 10 playing tricks in hearts. Staring at my 0 count with doubleton Heart, I jump to 4H. This goes down (as does 3NT) but 4S makes on a 4-4 fit. Discussions then followed on why we weren't in this making contract.
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#16 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2014-April-21, 13:57

View PostNicebutDim, on 2014-April-21, 13:52, said:

At the table, the auction started
2c, 2d, 2h
At this point opener has promised 10 playing tricks in hearts. Staring at my 0 count with doubleton Heart, I jump to 4H. This goes down (as does 3NT) but 4S makes on a 4-4 fit. Discussions then followed on why we weren't in this making contract.


I think that most players would chose to rebid 3 showing a second negative rather than bidding a very unilateral 4.

After 3, partner would pattern out by bidding 3 and you (probably) have a raise to 4
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#17 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2014-April-21, 14:02

View PostNicebutDim, on 2014-April-21, 13:52, said:

At the table, the auction started
2c, 2d, 2h
At this point opener has promised 10 playing tricks in hearts. Staring at my 0 count with doubleton Heart, I jump to 4H. This goes down (as does 3NT) but 4S makes on a 4-4 fit. Discussions then followed on why we weren't in this making contract.

Suppose partner were 3-5-0-5 with hearts and clubs and a huge hand. What is he supposed to bid over 2 - 2? Or any 4405 hand with 5 hearts? Or, for that matter, 4531? Just because 2NT is a plausible rebid on the hand that he had doesn't mean there will not be other hands where a 2NT rebid is out of the question but his longest suit is 5 cards.

That is why it is wrong to jump to 4 on a doubleton. His 2 bid doesn't promise 6 for very practical reasons - it would make some hands totally unbiddable. Even holding some hands that partner MIGHT choose to rebid 2NT - say a 4-4-1-4 24 count with the A (or even a lesser honor), partner might decide that a 2 rebid is a lesser misdescription of his hand than 2NT.

In other words, 4 might not be the best contract. Better to let partner describe his hand more fully before you leap to the 4 level.

By the way, if you reserve your 2 opener for hands that have 10 playing tricks (excluding hands where you intend to rebid some number of NT) you will be opening 1 of a suit on some extremely strong hands. I suggest that you lower your requirements somewhat. I am very conservative in my suit oriented opening 2 bids, and my requirement is basically a 3 loser hand by modified losing trick count - one loser for each card in a suit up to 3 reduced by each A, K and Q held in the suit (Q does not count for a doubleton, and K and Q do not count for a singleton). Having a 3 loser hand doesn't mean that I have 10 playing tricks. Qxx is only 2 losers by MLTC, but it is hardly worth one playing trick.
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#18 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2014-April-21, 14:45

View PostNicebutDim, on 2014-April-21, 13:52, said:

At the table, the auction started
2c, 2d, 2h
At this point opener has promised 10 playing tricks in hearts.

I am not convinced that this is true, absent a particular agreement with your partner.
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#19 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2014-April-21, 16:50

Read the first response, from brothgar, to see how most people think of this. If you open 1 there is a severe danger that partner will pass but show up with Qxx in diamonds and xxx in hearts, likely enough for ten tricks. The sequence 2-2-2NT distorts the hand too much in my opinion. Opener can have a five card major and bid that way, often does in fact, but 5-4 in the majors with one of the minors unstopped and the other minor iffy? No thanks.

So I, and I think most, begin 2-2-2.

Because we do this, most play responder's rebid of 3 as conventional, showing a weak hand. If you don't want to play this "second negative" convention after the negative 2-2M (it's one of the oldest in bridge except for things such as blackwood and stayman) then you have to have some other agreement that would let you get out. Maybe a raise to 3 is passable. Or even bidding 2 and then (on a different hand) 3 might be passable, although that sounds weird.

I once played against a pair where the auction went 2-2-2-Pass. I turned to opener and, in my most innocent voice, asked "Do you play that as a second negative?". She had to think for a while but eventually allowed that it was. I don't recommend this approach.


Incidentally, if responder really has nothing it is not quite a slam dunk that 4 makes, although I gather that it did. A second negative still does not show truly nothing, maybe something like 0 to 3 highs. And the 3 won't be a king. So you will likely end in game here, it's not a lock but at least spades has a decent shot.If you stop short of game that could be right on some layouts.
Ken
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#20 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-April-22, 08:43

View PostNicebutDim, on 2014-April-21, 13:52, said:

At the table, the auction started
2c, 2d, 2h

Assuming that you and partner had not discussed such things as whether a second round minor is a double negative here and that your hand was something like 4234/4243, it would seem the logical thing to bid 2 now.
(-: Zel :-)
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