[eagles123]

In a 5 card major/strong NT system, what does 2NT show in (no inteference)

1x 2y 2N

thanks

Eagles

[Stephen Tu]

You should be more specific about what "x" and "y" are, it's completely unclear and the answer really depends a lot on what the bids actually are. A 2/1 in a lower ranking suit is quite a different animal from a jump in a higher ranking suit. A jump shift furthermore could be treated as weak NF, strong GF/slammish, game invite, or some sort of raise, all depending on agreements.

Also, it depends whether the basic system is "SA", "2/1 GF", Acol, French Std, German std, etc. For a 2/1 response, each could imply different minimums for responders strength, and whether it promises a rebid, both of which can affect what you'd want opener's 2nt to mean. Also relevant is if your style is to always open 5M332 with 15-17 with 1nt, never open 1nt, or if one is allowed to use judgment to decide whether to open 1nt or not.

[eagles123]

ok 1S 2H "sayc"

sorry for not being more specific

[Stephen Tu]

OK, so SAYC:

SAYC is a rather poorly defined system, a specific flavor of SA that was put together by committee, basically a hodgepodge of once somewhat popular treatments at the time (1980s) thrown together with often little regard as to how well the treatments fit together, and it has several logical holes in it, and lack of coherent structure after 2/1 bidding is one of them. It was intended for "everyone plays the same system" events, which proved unpopular and died out, but the system was unfortunately revived and lives on as an internet bridge default due to its relatively brief writeup being available and easily distributed with the okbridge server/client software, the first popular internet bridge platform.

The 2/1 response only requires about a 10 count according to system, yet it also promises a rebid. And a 2nt rebid by opener supposedly shows "a minimum, 13-15 points". So if one were following the system as written, theoretically the bidding could go 1S-2H-2nt-3nt, with 13 opposite 10, and it would be quite a thin overbid game. Also in practice, especially playing a 15-17 nt opener, people are opening most 12 point hands, so I don't see why the system thinks a minimum opener would have 13, so you could well get there with 12 opposite 10.

A possibly better way, in practice, though maybe not strictly in accordance with the booklet, is for minimum 1S openers to rebid 2S despite being suitable for a 2nt rebid. This allows responder to be able to bid 2nt NF, which opener can now pass. This is closer to the French std style, where opener rebidding 2nt over a 2/1 shows 15-17 pts. Also as responder you might be a little more conservative and wait for an 11 count to 2/1.

In practice, out in the real world of BBO online pickup partnerships, you will find that:
- many simply don't know that 2/1 in SAYC promises a rebid, so you will see 2nt rebids get passed a lot.
- and thus you may want to avoid the problem by just opening 1nt on all 15-17 5332 M hands, and thus avoid the 2nt rebid entirely, and go ahead and rebid 2M on your mins in case you want to pass a NF 2nt.

In a real regular partnership, I would either use 2/1 GF, where you can bid 2nt with better definition and less worry about getting passed, or play French Std style.

[helene_t]

Generally 12-14 unless playing sef. In 2/1 it is 12-14 OR 18-19.

In sayc it is unclear but certainly forcing. In sef it is 15-17

[Wackojack]

 helene_t, on 2014-August-02, 02:52, said:

Generally 12-14 unless playing sef. In 2/1 it is 12-14 OR 18-19.

In sayc it is unclear but certainly forcing. In sef it is 15-17

Though not SAYC (I believe) most who claim to play SAYC play it something like this: (and is a generally workable method if you always open 1N with 15-17 and any 5332 distribution)

So if you rebid 2N with 12-14 balanced and 3N with 18-19 it will follow that:

A raise of partners 2m response promises 4 card support. (except 1♠-2♥ when it promises at least 3.
A forced rebid at the 3 level promises extras.
A rebid 2M could be an unbalanced 5 carder (except 1♠-2♣-2♠ where it promises 6.

A special case is 1♦-2♣-?
If you play 2N as 12-14 balanced then responder has no room to invite 3NT with 11. This possible disadvantage you have to accept unless you do it the SAYC way which is to play a rebid of 2♦as forcing.

[Zelandakh]

According to the booklet a minimum 2NT rebid shows a weak NT hand but as has already been pointed out is also forcing. Something has to give there and the easiest solution, popularised on BBF by Adam, is for the 2NT rebid to show 18-19 and rebid 2x with weak NT types. I would not suggest risking this with a pick-up though!

As others have mentioned SEF I will give my understanding of Forum D, which to my knowledge is identical. If x is a major then this 2NT rebid shows 15-17 (12-14 rebids 2x; 18-19 rebids 3NT). If x is diamonds then the 2NT rebid shows 12-14 (15-17 would have opened 1NT and 18-19 rebids 3NT).

So there you go, in a 5 card major system 2NT shows either 12-14 or 15-17 or 18-19. Oh yes, and other ranges are possible too if the strong NT is not 15-17. Completely clear, no?

[helene_t]

 Zelandakh, on 2014-August-02, 08:12, said:

According to the booklet a minimum 2NT rebid shows a weak NT hand but as has already been pointed out is also forcing. Something has to give there and the easiest solution, popularised on BBF by Adam, is for the 2NT rebid to show 18-19 and rebid 2x with weak NT types. I would not suggest risking this with a pick-up though!

An alternative interpretation is that responder can't invite opposite the weak nt. If responder does not want to be in game opposite the weak NT, he bids 1NT. A 2-level response might not force to game opposite a misfitting minimum unbalanced hand, but you are committed to game opposite a balanced minimum (at least if you have a balanced hand yourself). Note that since SAYC does not include any check-back structure, there is also no way to show an invitational hand with a 5-card M after
1m-1M
1NT-?
So if you want to build your partnership system on SAYC without violating anything in the booklet, you might as well keep the weak NT range narrow, i.e. passing modest 12-count and upgrading nice 14-counts.

Anyway, it is of course more important to have a firm understanding with partner than to adhere to the SAYC gospel. And if you are willing to violate some SAYC principles, there are many playable options. For example, you could play
1♦-2NT
as invitational.

[wank]

if you want to start playing 5 card majors, play 2/1.

if you want to play something better than acol with a weak NT, but more familiar than 2/1, try 4cM with a strong or even better 14-16 NT. This way you open 1M a lot with weak hands with 4M which is quite pre-emptive. btw playing this was is a good introduction to 2/1, because with the balanced hands too strong for 1NT you should effectively play 5cM and 2/1s should be pretty strong.

[akwoo]

I think 5 card major strong NT Acol (meaning 2/1 bids forcing to 2 of opener's suit) is perfectly playable, and in fact I probably prefer it to Standard American. Actually a lot of people claiming to play Standard American are playing 5 card major strong NT Acol.

[eagles123]

thx folks this was just a problem i had playing with bbo randoms, makes a lot more sense now

Eagles