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bid forcing 1nt or make a 2/1 bid?

#1 User is offline   movingon 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 07:51

Partner opens 1S in second seat. Is this hand good enough for a 2/1, or
> do you bid a forcing Nt?
>
> Q10
> KQ42
> 2
> A108732
>
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#2 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 08:32

2C GF. Will lead to much better auctions and you with be forcing game opposite a 2s, 2h, or 2c rebid anyway if you start with 1n
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#3 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 08:50

View Postbroze, on 2014-September-04, 08:32, said:

2C GF. Will lead to much better auctions and you with be forcing game opposite a 2s, 2h, or 2c rebid anyway if you start with 1n


Would partner open 1 with

AK432
432
K5432
void
Alderaan delenda est
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#4 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 08:59

Yep. And if he has that we'll be unlucky. OP didn't specify form of scoring but I'm assuming IMPs. I would take the low road at MPs.
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#5 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 09:00

You can't always bid worrying that partner is going to have the worst hand possible.
'In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion.' - Douglas Adams
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#6 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 09:05

The question depends on whether 2/1 is a game force. If it is a game force, responder doesn't have one, no matter how many posts someone makes insisting he does.
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#7 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 09:24

View Postaguahombre, on 2014-September-04, 09:05, said:

The question depends on whether 2/1 is a game force. If it is a game force, responder doesn't have one, no matter how many posts someone makes insisting he does.

+1
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#8 User is offline   movingon 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 09:54

and, yes, the 2/1 bid would be absolutely game forcing.
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#9 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 09:55

View Postaguahombre, on 2014-September-04, 09:05, said:

The question depends on whether 2/1 is a game force. If it is a game force, responder doesn't have one, no matter how many posts someone makes insisting he does.

If it's not GF, there wouldn't be a point to the question.

#10 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 10:06

2 is only a modest overbid and i'll make it because it leaves me in a better position for the rest of the auction. for example, i don't want to get to the NTs first with this hand. it's not unlikely we can make 3nt by p's hand.
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#11 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 11:14

View Postaguahombre, on 2014-September-04, 09:05, said:

The question depends on whether 2/1 is a game force. If it is a game force, responder doesn't have one, no matter how many posts someone makes insisting he does.


Nothing like healthy debate! Obviously responder is short of a game force otherwise there would be no problem. Does that mean he can't overbid in order to solve other problems that may arise in the auction? Of course not.
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#12 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 11:50

The thing is: Responder doesn't need to overbid at this precise moment. The forcing NT can consist of many unbalanced hands, and even some game forcing balanced ones if we choose.

After a FNT start, with this hand, we have flexibility to ugrade or downgrade as the auction proceeds.

2S..would probably make a simple invite to 3S, but might try 4 myself.
2H..on to game in hearts.
2D..downgrade at 2S? Opener will make a third bid most of the time when we belong in game.
2C..would get froggie and suggest slam.
2N(18-19)..3C now would be natural, unbalanced by inference, and slammish. With more balance would just bid 3N..with less strength would have bid 3C the first time.

There is a slight worry that, if we end in NT it will be wrong sided; but the continuation plans are comfortable enough to offset that drawback.
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#13 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 12:40

View Postaguahombre, on 2014-September-04, 11:50, said:

2C..would get froggie and suggest slam.

A little much to suggest slam. It would be nice if spades were the unbid major here and we could bid the "impossible" 2, but we can't. 3, while an underbid, is probably enough. Let's not get carried away, and let's not eliminate the possibility of playing in 3NT.

3 is about right in terms of values, it just understates our club support (and that is an understatement).
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#14 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 14:53

This is a very nice hand but I will still start with 1nt given how light people open today.

fwiw I play a rather wide ranging 1ntf.

IF pard rebids 2s I will make a splinter bid of 4d which if anything is an underbid
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#15 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 15:46

If p bids 2 over your GF 2 you won't be able to put on the brakes and don't have a GF hand. But if you use forcing 1N you can always go to game, signoff in 2 or invite if that is your preference.
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#16 User is offline   movingon 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 15:48

Now how about this one:

"In deciding whether to respond with a game forcing 2/1 bid, add 1 point for a 5 card suit and 2 points for a 6 card suit?"
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#17 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 15:59

1NT for me. I don't understand the problem.
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#18 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 16:11

View Postkenrexford, on 2014-September-04, 15:59, said:

1NT for me. I don't understand the problem.

Not true. YOU do understand the problem.
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#19 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 16:19

View Postmovingon, on 2014-September-04, 15:48, said:

Now how about this one:

"In deciding whether to respond with a game forcing 2/1 bid, add 1 point for a 5 card suit and 2 points for a 6 card suit?"

Marty Bergen would, I think, evaluate this as a bad 12 points. 11 HCP, two points for the club length, subtract a point for Q doubleton in spades. Bad 12s should not force to game.
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#20 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-September-05, 02:51

View Postbroze, on 2014-September-04, 08:32, said:

2C GF. Will lead to much better auctions and you with be forcing game opposite a 2s, 2h, or 2c rebid anyway if you start with 1n


1 1NT
2 4

1 1NT
2 4

1 1NT
2 2NT

1 1NT
2 4

Seem like pretty good auctions to me. I'd bid 1NT.
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