[dickiegera]

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If the auction would have started like this how should it have continued?

Thank you

[hrothgar]

dickiegera, on 2014-November-08, 08:40, said:

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If the auction would have started like this how should it have continued?

Thank you

RKCB

[kenrexford]

hrothgar, on 2014-November-08, 08:57, said:

RKCB

Easy to say, but I bet that. 99% of people either don't know what suit would be in focus or what to do with the same hand but 1 diamond 4 clubs.

For example, my normal default would be 4S as RKCB for diamonds here, but that's really scary.

[Jinksy]

Huh? Surely on bog-standard agreements RKCB is for last suit bid, if one hasn't been agreed already.

[Cthulhu D]

Jinksy, on 2014-November-08, 20:17, said:

Huh? Surely on bog-standard agreements RKCB is for last suit bid, if one hasn't been agreed already.

That's my agreement. It's not quantitative on this auction, so I'll get a tank and then the response to diamond key cards.

[1eyedjack]

Just curious, but if you held a quantitative 4N hand type, how would you bid it?

[Cthulhu D]

1eyedjack, on 2014-November-08, 22:31, said:

Just curious, but if you held a quantitative 4N hand type, how would you bid it?

Three scenarios, overall methods are Playing T-Walsh with all weak NT's in 1C, and partner opening all balanced 11 counts, and playing a 14-16 NT range, so 1C here is basically always 11-13 balanced.

A) Responder has a balanced 20-21 count and wants to make a quant invite straight away. Look, this hasn't happened to me yet, but we've vaguely agreed that a direct 4NT would be quant here. Am I even remotely sure partner would remember that at the time? Nope. Is this likely to actually happen to me ever? Nah.

B) Responder has something like a balanced 15-17 count with a heart stop, and wants to make a quantitative move after the reverse? I'd just immediately bid 3NT with a heart stop instead of 2S, showing this hand. Partner is going to find a bid over 3NT with his actual hand.

C) The nightmare hand is a 5-3-3-2 15-16 count, with which I'm going to have to improvise a bit, and I'm not sure we can bid this intelligently. Though if I cue bid hearts then bid 4NT instead of directly bid 4NT he might work it out.

[1eyedjack]

Cthulhu D, on 2014-November-09, 04:26, said:

so 1C here is basically always 11-13 *if* balanced.

FYP
Presumably even if playing TWalsh you would still open 1C with an unbalanced hand and Diamond reverse with longer Clubs.

At which point, the qualifying conditions for responder to have a hand worth a quant 4N are different than immediately opposite 1C.

[Trump Echo]

The question is, how does East read the 3 Diamonds bid?

My regular partner would read it as a reverse, regardless of the fact that it's level 3. She would see grand slam values in Diamonds. We'd end up at 7.

[1eyedjack]

Whatever 3D shows, I would not expect it to show a balanced 11-13, even if that were originally a possibility for the 1C opener.

[Cthulhu D]

1eyedjack, on 2014-November-09, 05:11, said:

FYP
Presumably even if playing TWalsh you would still open 1C with an unbalanced hand and Diamond reverse with longer Clubs.

At which point, the qualifying conditions for responder to have a hand worth a quant 4N are different than immediately opposite 1C.

No, my post was deliberate - the weak NT is the strongly dominant hand type and that effects my immediate responses as outlined in the other points. The hands that are only worth a quantitative slam try after the reverse are strong NT openers type hands.

Those hands will have already made a limited bid on the first round of the auction, prior to the reverse (with responder assuming that opener has the weak NT) and turned captaincy over to opener, except a 5-3-3-2 15-17 hand exactly - that would be hand types B and C covered in my post above.

After an action like 1C-(2H)-3NT with the hand in the problem opener can bid quant or 4D or whatever.

[1eyedjack]

Cthulhu D, on 2014-November-09, 07:55, said:

No, my post was deliberate

OK you know your own system far better than I do. If you are telling me that responder would never bid 2S after a 2H overcall over 1C whilst containing a hand that might then want to follow up with a quantitative 4N after an (unlikely) 3D rebid by opener, in light of the redefined opener, then I have to take you at your word. I don't say that I understand it, but that is my problem.

Furthermore, it sounds like a method which is pretty unique, even among TWalshers, so I am not sure of its value to the rest of us.

[fourdad]

Trump Echo, on 2014-November-09, 07:05, said:

The question is, how does East read the 3 Diamonds bid?

My regular partner would read it as a reverse, regardless of the fact that it's level 3. She would see grand slam values in Diamonds. We'd end up at 7.

As would mine!

[Cthulhu D]

1eyedjack, on 2014-November-09, 08:35, said:

OK you know your own system far better than I do. If you are telling me that responder would never bid 2S after a 2H overcall over 1C whilst containing a hand that might then want to follow up with a quantitative 4N after an (unlikely) 3D rebid by opener, in light of the redefined opener, then I have to take you at your word. I don't say that I understand it, but that is my problem.

Furthermore, it sounds like a method which is pretty unique, even among TWalshers, so I am not sure of its value to the rest of us.

I'm not making myself clear. The hand type that is going to want to make a quantitative invite after a 1C opening, 1D reverse is a strong NT. There are three possible strong no trump hand types that could be held (with or without a stopper for 6 total), and these would be roughly as follows:

a) A strong NT with 2 or 3 spades. This hand is pretty clearly going to have bid 3NT or 3H as it's first response. After that, responder has a fairly clear set of actions.

b) A strong NT with 4 spades. This hand will either start with a double or with 3NT depending on spade quality and the stopper situation. Responder will start with a jump shift, or cue with his big hand. 1C-(2H)-X-(P)-3H-4NT would be quantative

c) A strong NT with 5 spades, the hand type I would characterize as the 'nightmare' hand type.

The only one that is going to bid 2S is type C. That hand type is going to be very hard to bid.

[m1cha]

dickiegera, on 2014-November-08, 08:40, said:

[1♣ (2♥) 2♠ (p) / 3♦ (p) ?]

If the auction would have started like this how should it have continued?

Thank you

I have an agreement with my present regular partner that a raise to 4 in partner's minor by a so-far unlimited hand confirms trumps and is at the same time the keycard question. If you don't want to hear keycards, bid 5. While this may not satisfy the requirements of all experts, it is a useful thing, simple to learn and play on all intermediate levels, and it brings you to the grand slam in the given problem easily.

Advantages:
- In contrast to 4NT Blackwood it is still low enough to sign off in 5m.
- It allows you to play 4NT quantitatively without wondering how partner may understand the bid.
- You don't have to play 4♥ as kickback to ♦ in situations where 4♥ may be natural.

The down side:
- You cannot sign off or invite in 4m. If you want to sign off or invite, you have to bid 3m, otherwise you pass, go to 5m, try 3NT or keep the bidding open.

Is this a big loss? Not so much, I think. How often in the last year did you reach 4m in an uncontested auction and it turned out the contract you really wanted to be in?

[mikeh]

m1cha, on 2014-November-09, 17:37, said:

The down side:
- You cannot sign off or invite in 4m. If you want to sign off or invite, you have to bid 3m, otherwise you pass, go to 5m, try 3NT or keep the bidding open.

Is this a big loss? Not so much, I think. How often in the last year did you reach 4m in an uncontested auction and it turned out the contract you really wanted to be in?

These are not the only downsides, and not even close to being the worst aspect of this treatment. There are many hands on which one wants to set trump and initiate cuebids. That is a very important aspect of intelligent, co-operative bidding. I'd almost rather give up keycard asking if I had to choose, but fortunately there are other methods. Kickback is relatively simple, as one example.

[iandayre]

Seems to me if E bids 3H, and W bids 4D, 4NT is surely RKC for ♦ at that point.

[m1cha]

mikeh, on 2014-November-09, 20:20, said:

These are not the only downsides, and not even close to being the worst aspect of this treatment. There are many hands on which one wants to set trump and initiate cuebids. That is a very important aspect of intelligent, co-operative bidding. I'd almost rather give up keycard asking if I had to choose, but fortunately there are other methods. Kickback is relatively simple, as one example.

I am completely with you on the expert level, for an expert Kickback is a must. But I was trying to make a simple suggestion for the lower levels. For the average player playing with a regular partner once a week, I do not agree that Kickback is "relatively simple". They will go through lots of failures until it finally works because there is no simple rule to tell when 4♥ is natural and when it is Kickback for the multitude of sequences in competitive bidding.

Well then, to all those of you who want to become an expert some day: Please don't feel discouraged, go for it anyway!

[lowerline]

dickiegera, on 2014-November-08, 08:40, said:

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If the auction would have started like this how should it have continued?

Thank you

4nt-5♠-5nt-7♣-7♦