[Cthulhu D]

Looking at the auctions (in a 14-16 or 15-17 NT context for whatever difference that makes) 1N-2D!-2H-?? and 1N-2H!-2S-?? as discussed in this thread http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry815534

I don't fully understand what people are proposing for openers rebids. I have highlighted the bits that are confusing the hell out of me in bold.

1N-2C-2red-2S: is now 5 spades, Invitational (you lose the 5-4 invitational option)

1N-2D!-2H:

2S: Invitational with 5 hearts, balanced.
2N: 4+ ♣s (3C is then fit showing)
3C: 4+ ♦s (3D is then fit showing)
3D: Invitational or slam try with 6+ ♥s
3H: Invitational with 5/5 majors (am I getting this right?)
3S: Choice of games gadget
3N: Choice of games gadget

(where does the 3S as a self splinter go? I guess transfer instead?)

Then after 1N-2H!-2S:

2N: 4+ clubs
3C: 4+ diamonds
3D: 4+ Hearts??
3H: 5/5 GF???
3S: Invitational with 6+ spades
3N: Choice of games


I'm pretty sure I'm misunderstanding the spades response structure. Mgeotze's post state that 3D is the 5/5 GF option, but that doesn't make any sense. Can anyone tell me what is going on or have I missed something completely obvious.

[FrancesHinden]

The reason you are confused, I would guess, is because the other thread has lots of people posting their own favourite bits of kit. There is no reason to expect that amalgamating lots of different systems will result in one coherent whole.
I could offer you one set of continuations (e.g. the ones I play) but even then they only really work when you combine them with the rest of the NT system. For example, we like to show major-minor canapés rather than be murky about responder's suit lengths. That means we include a gadget to do that. Also, you can decide whether to include "garbage" stayman in the 2C response, this affects what you do with your 5-card invites. We like to play in 2M when responder has a 5-card invite, but that has meant we give up on responding 2C with very weak hands. If you are prepared to do that, all your 4- or 5-card invites start with 2C and that makes the transfers either weak, game forcing, or 6 cards

Anyway, in order to be helpful, here's an adjusted version of what you just wrote that is more consistent between the majors and hence a bit more memorable.

1NT - 2C - 2red - 2S = invitational with 5 spades. (with 5 spades and 4 hearts you would raise hearts if partner bid 2H over stayman)
1NT-2C-2D-2H = weak with both majors

1NT-2D-2H-
...2S = invitational with 5 hearts, might have 4 spades (you can also put some slam tries in here if you want). Opener distinguishes between major suit lengths if accepting
...2NT/3C = 4+ cards in the next suit up, FG
...3D = 6 hearts, FG (either slam try or COG)
...3H = nat inv
...3S/4m = auto splinter

1NT-2H-2S-
...2NT/3C/3D = 4+ cards in the next suit up, FG
...3H = 6 spades, FG
...3S = nat INV
others obvious

1NT-2C-2D-
...3D = 5/5 majors FG
...3H = 5/5 majors INV
...3S = 4 spades, 5 hearts FG (Smolen)

This means you might play in 2NT with a 4-4 spade fit, but everything else works. However, if previously you were using 1NT-2C-2D-3D to show a 4-card major and a 5-card minor, FG, you need to fit that in somewhere else. Nothing comes free, and hence the comment that you can never show only part of a complex 1NT system, it all has to fit together.

[awm]

I agree with Frances that this clearly depends on the rest of the system. In case it helps, here's what Sam and I play:

1NT - 2♦ = 5+♥ (any) or 4♥-6+m with GF values

1NT - 2♦ - 2♥:
... 2♠ = 5+♥ exactly invitational
------ 2NT = min 2♥ (now pass/3m/3♥ all to play; 3m will be 5/5 hand and 3♥=6+♥)
------ 3♣ = max 2♥ (now pass/3♦/3♥ are NF with under-value shapely invites)
------ 3♦ = "good" minimum with 3+♥
------ 3♥ = "bad" minimum with 3+♥
------ 3♠ = 3433 max, choice of game
------ 3NT = (4333) max with 3!h, choice of game
------ 4♥ = max 3+♥ not 4333
... 2NT = 4+♣ GF
------ 3♣ = relay
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♦ = 5+♣ and 4-5♥, same as 3♦ below (but with clubs)
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♥+ = 5+♥, 4♣; same as rebids after 3♣-3♦ below
... 3♣ = 4♦ exactly, GF
------ 3♦ = relay
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♥ = high (spade) shortage; 1543
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♠ = low (club) shortage; 3541
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3NT = no shortage (2542) not slam interested
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4♣ = high (spade) shortage with 6+♥; typical 1642
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4♦ = low (club) shortage with 6+♥; typical 2641
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4♥(+) = slammish 2542
... 3♦ = 5+♦ and 4-5♥, GF
------ 3♥ = relay; usually exactly 3♥
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♠ = 5♥, sets trumps
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3NT = 4♥ only with 6+♦, NF
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4m = 4♥ and 6+♦, slammish
------ 3♠ = 4+♥, sets trumps
------ 3NT = suggestion to play, stuff in the blacks
------ 4m = agrees ♦, 2♥ and weak in at least one black suit
... 3♥ = 5+♥ and 5+♠, exactly INV
... 3♠ = 6+♥ slam try (asking cuebids)
... 3NT = choice of games
... 4m = 6+♥ splinter
... 4♥ = 6+♥ spade splinter (NF)

We play very similar stuff over 1NT-2♥ except that there are no invites (invite with 5+♠ starts with 2♣ so we can get out at the two level) and that 1NT-2♥-2♠-3♥ is GF with 5/5 majors (invite with both majors starts 2♦). Invitational or better hands with 5+/4 majors always start with 2♣.

[Cthulhu D]

FrancesHinden, on 2014-November-30, 09:45, said:

The reason you are confused, I would guess, is because the other thread has lots of people posting their own favourite bits of kit. There is no reason to expect that amalgamating lots of different systems will result in one coherent whole.

Yes, I was mostly focused on Mgoetze's description of 'Expert Standard' here:

Quote

Spoiler

2♣ Stayman, after which 2♠ shows invite with 5 spades
2♦ Hearts, rebids include 2♠ invite with 5, 3♦ invite or slam try with 6, 3♥ invite with 5-5, 3♠ GF with 5 demanding 4♥ with a fit and 3NT GF with 5 asking opener to use judgement.
2♥ Spades, rebids include 3♦ GF 5-5
2♠ Range ask or Clubs, opener bids 2NT with minimum
2NT Both minors weak or Diamonds, opener bids better minor
3♣ Asks for 5-card majors, also used with GF and exactly one 4-card major
3♦ Both minors strong
3♥ 31(45)
3♠ 13(45)

And Jlall's subsequent discussion of Meckwell's style, which I thought was very interesting. I'm red hot to remove the invitational spade hands into stayman, and I'm attracted to removing the invites in hearts. Garbage stayman is not a frequent bid so confining it only to 3 suited options is fine.

Quote

I could offer you one set of continuations (e.g. the ones I play) but even then they only really work when you combine them with the rest of the NT system. For example, we like to show major-minor canapés rather than be murky about responder's suit lengths. That means we include a gadget to do that. Also, you can decide whether to include "garbage" stayman in the 2C response, this affects what you do with your 5-card invites. We like to play in 2M when responder has a 5-card invite, but that has meant we give up on responding 2C with very weak hands. If you are prepared to do that, all your 4- or 5-card invites start with 2C and that makes the transfers either weak, game forcing, or 6 cards

This is much appreciated. I like the approach of the 5 card invite stopping in 2S (and stopping in 2H has appeal as well) - and I suspect partner will too (we like playing methods generally that let us stop at the 2 level in an 8 card fit wherever possible). I guess you can still play garbage stayman, just it has to be 3 suited not both majors two suited, which is fine.

Quote

Anyway, in order to be helpful, here's an adjusted version of what you just wrote that is more consistent between the majors and hence a bit more memorable.

Spoiler

1NT - 2C - 2red - 2S = invitational with 5 spades. (with 5 spades and 4 hearts you would raise hearts if partner bid 2H over stayman)
1NT-2C-2D-2H = weak with both majors

1NT-2D-2H-
...2S = invitational with 5 hearts, might have 4 spades (you can also put some slam tries in here if you want). Opener distinguishes between major suit lengths if accepting
...2NT/3C = 4+ cards in the next suit up, FG
...3D = 6 hearts, FG (either slam try or COG)
...3H = nat inv
...3S/4m = auto splinter

1NT-2H-2S-
...2NT/3C/3D = 4+ cards in the next suit up, FG
...3H = 6 spades, FG
...3S = nat INV
others obvious

1NT-2C-2D-
...3D = 5/5 majors FG
...3H = 5/5 majors INV
...3S = 4 spades, 5 hearts FG (Smolen)

This means you might play in 2NT with a 4-4 spade fit, but everything else works. However, if previously you were using 1NT-2C-2D-3D to show a 4-card major and a 5-card minor, FG, you need to fit that in somewhere else. Nothing comes free, and hence the comment that you can never show only part of a complex 1NT system, it all has to fit together.

Yeah, that is tricky. I was hoping to keep stayman relatively 'standard' which means the rebids after a transfer may just have to become more complex. If I elect to not play garbage stayman, so 1N-2C-2D-2H is an invite with 5 that has a lot to recommend itself - what's your gadget for the canape major/minor hands? I looked at transfers after stayman but that doesn't work.

Quote

I agree with Frances that this clearly depends on the rest of the system. In case it helps, here's what Sam and I play:

Cheers - how does including the 4H 6+m hands in the transfer handle when partner makes super accepts?

[awm]

Super-accepts are fine as long as they guarantee 4+ card support (which they do, for us).

[mgoetze]

Cthulhu D, on 2014-November-30, 07:58, said:

2N: 4+ clubs
3C: 4+ diamonds
3D: 4+ Hearts??
3H: 5/5 GF???
3S: Invitational with 6+ spades
3N: Choice of games

I put all 5-4 major hands through Stayman, all the other bids move up one:

3♦ 5-5 GF
3♥ 6 spade invite
3♠ COG
3NT COG

[Cthulhu D]

mgoetze, on 2014-December-02, 16:05, said:

I put all 5-4 major hands through Stayman, all the other bids move up one:

3♦ 5-5 GF
3♥ 6 spade invite
3♠ COG
3NT COG

Yeah, realising that was a major headdesk moment. I see how it works now - except I don't get what are you doing with 4 spades 5 hearts and an invite? Or does that go through stayman as well?

I'm guessing after 1N-2H!-2S:

2N: 4+ clubs
3C: 4+ diamonds
3D: 5/5 GF
3H: Invitational or slam try with 6.
3S: CoG Gadget
3N: CoG Gadget

Then Stayman goes:

1N-2C-2D:

2H: Invite with 5
2S: Invite with 5
2N: Invite balanced with a 4 cM
3H: 5 S, 4H GF
3S: 5H 4S GF

[mgoetze]

I don't have a special bid for 5-4 majors INV, I'll just bid Stayman and miss a 5-3 fit once a year. I actually play 1NT-2♣; 2♦-2♥ as weak both majors, with all 5-card heart invites going via 1NT-2♦; 2♥-2♠.

[Cthulhu D]

FrancesHinden, on 2014-November-30, 09:45, said:

Also, you can decide whether to include "garbage" stayman in the 2C response, this affects what you do with your 5-card invites. We like to play in 2M when responder has a 5-card invite, but that has meant we give up on responding 2C with very weak hands. If you are prepared to do that, all your 4- or 5-card invites start with 2C and that makes the transfers either weak, game forcing, or 6 cards

OK I finally nailed partner down (plane trip together lol) so we could work through some of the outstanding discussion items.

Partner's expressed preferences - we're not going with 2N as puppet stayman, and we probably prefer putting the hearts invites though 1N-2D because we're not confident in our ability to land on our feet after 1N-2C-2S with 5 hearts (or, atleast, 3H as a spade raise is more valuable).

I like your suggestion of putting the 5/5 hands through stayman, but I think we need them for the minor Canape hands (I ran AWM's approach of 4M6m hands going through the transfer but partner is not a fan).

So that leaves us with:

1N:
  2C: Promissary Stayman for all invites with 5 spades, 5/4 majors and 4M5m hands
  2D: Hearts, after acceptance 2S is invitational with or without 4S, 2N/3C transfers
  2H: Spades, after acceptance 2N/3C transfers
  2S: Range Ask or Clubs
  2N: Diamonds
  3C: Puppet Stayman
  3D: 5/5 Minors
  3H: 3=1=(45)
  3S: 1=3=(54)
  3N: To play
  4C: GERBER (can probably be set on fire)
  4D: Hearts
  4H: Spades
  4S: Quantative invite, min
  4N: Quant, Max.

Full details:

Spoiler

O	R	O	R	O	R	O	1 NT Opening   14-16
1N							14-16 Balanced
	2C						Stayman
		2D					Stayman answer, No 4cM
			pass				weak 4-4-4-1
			2H				weak scramble for either major (4+ in both majors, 4-4-1-4)
			2S				NF 5S invitational
			2N				game invitation
			3m				natural GF, generally slamish
			3M				Smolen, showing 5 of unbid major and 4 of the bid major, GF
			3N				to play
			4C				RKC Gerber 1430 2B 2G  (2 bad 2 good)
			4D				??
	2C	2H					Stayman answer, 4+ hearts, doesnt deny 4 spades
			pass				weak 4+ in both majors
			2S				5 card suit, invitational
			2N				Invitational with 4S
			3m				natural GF, generally slamish
			3H				invite
			3S				splinter for S or balanced slam try
				3NT			Asks
				4H			Spade splinter
				other			cue bid with slam try.
			3N				to play (4 spades)
			4m				splinters
			4H				to play
			4S				exclusion blackwood  (see SLAM)
			4N				quantitative balanced with 4S
			5m				exclusion blackwood  (see SLAM)
			5H				call 6 with 2 of top 4
	2C	2S					Stayman answer, 4+S. denies 4 hearts
			pass				weak 4+ in both majors
			2N				Invitational
			3m				natural GF, generally slamish
			3H				balanced slam try with 4S
			3S				invite
			3N				to play
			4x				splinters
			4S				to play
			4N				quantitative balanced with 4H
			5x				exclusion blackwood  (see SLAM)
			5S				call 6 with 2 of top 4
	2D	2H					Transfer to Hearts (5+)
			2S				Transfer to 2N, Invitational plus
				2N			Any rejection
					Bids		??
					3S		4S GF
				3S			Accept with 4 spades
				3N			Accept without 4 spades
			2N				4+ Clubs
			3C				4+ Diamonds
			3D				6+ Hearts, Invitational or slammy
				3H			Rejecting invite
				3N			Maximum
			3H				5/5 majors, invitational
			3S				Choice of Games - compells 4H with 3
			3N				Pick a game - Use judgement
			4m				Auto Splinter (6+ H, slam interest)
			4S				Weak Quantitative
			4N				Quantitative
			5m				exclusion blackwood  (see SLAM)
		3H					Super accept: 4H and a minimum
		3x					Super accept: 4H, a maximum, and 2 cards in the bid suit
		2NT					A maximum with: Hxx hearts or 3-4-3-3 exactly and stoppers in every other suit
		4H					5 Hearts
	2H	2S					Transfer to Spades (5+)
			2N				4+ Clubs
			3C				4+ Diamonds
			3D				5/5 majors GF
			3H				6+ Spades, Invitational or slammy
			3S				Choice of Games - compells 4S with 3
			3N				Pick a game - Use judgement
			4x				Splinter (6+ S, slam interest)
			4N				Quantitative
			5x				exclusion blackwood  (see SLAM)
		3S					Super accept: 4S and a minimum
		3x					Super accept: 4S, a maximum, and 2 cards in the bid suit
		2NT					A maximum with: Hxx spades, or 4-3-3-3 and stoppers in every other suit
		4S					5 Spades
	2S						Range Ask or 6+ clubs
		2N					Minimum
		3C					Maximum
			Pass				To play
			3D				6+ Clubs GF with either 0-1D OR no shortness
				3H			Asks which, 3S is short.
			3M				6+ C GF stiff in M
			3N				To play
			4m				2245m quantitative+
			4N				Quantitative(-)
	2NT						Diamonds
		3C					Rejects Invite in Diamonds
			Pass				5/5 minors.
			3D				To play
			Bids				Slam try
			3NT				To Play
		3D					Would Accept a diamond invite.
			Bids				Showing shortness for a slam try
			3NT				To play
			5D				To play
	3C						Puppet Stayman
		3D					a 4cM
			3M				4 cards in oM
			3N				To play
			4C				11(56) GF
			4D				6+ D, no shortage, strong SI
			4H				RKC for diamodns
		3H					No 5 or 4 card major
			3S				5 Spades
		3S					5 Spades
		3N					5 Hearts - Choice of games
			4D				Transfer to Hearts
	3D						5-5 minors GF
	3H						3=1=(54)
	3S						1=3=(54)
	3N						To Play
	4C						Gerber, asking for Aces
	4D	4H					Texas Transfers to H (6+)
	4H	4S					Texas Transfers to S (6+)
	4S						Min Quant
	4N						Balanced Quantitative (no 4cM) 17ish pts
	5m						To play (preemptive type)
	5N						Pick a slam (20-21 pts)