[Jinksy]

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Teams.

[akwoo]

If there is a sizable margin either way, I would bid to swing or take insurance against them swinging. Otherwise, pass.

[Tramticket]

Suit quality is poor. West often has hearts when he raises to three hearts.

Pass.

[mgoetze]

I suppose I would have something to think about if the vulnerability were reversed.

[rmnka447]

Pass!

Remember responder could have as much as a minimum opener and make the 3 ♠ raise.

Entering the auction at this point is a leap into the unknown. You might land OK, but you might also go for a number. If you're going to compete, you want a hand good enough to limit the penalties. You've only got a smattering of points and a weak suit -- not good enough.

If game is on your way, partner has to have substantial values. But partner wasn't able to T/O double or bid NT, so the chances of that happening seem a bit remote. So, pass and see if partner can reopen the auction. If not, you've probably not missed much.

Which would you rather do in the post mortem -- explain how you sold out to 3 ♠ or explain how you went for -1100 on a part score hand?

[WesleyC]

First a disclaimer that at the table I would pass, however I think this decision is closer than the other respondents are suggesting.

Many players only bid 3S in this position with a good fit and no game interest. With more values, they always start with 2NT, and with less support and more defense they will always pass and hope to play 2S. Against that kind of player, 4H has a lot more going for it. It will sometimes roll home, might push the opponents into a phantom sac and if it does turn out to be a disaster, might not get doubled.

If you changed the hand to [x KJT9xx ATx 854] then I think 4H is clear.

[phil_20686]

You know that partner has a decent hand here, but just couldn't take action. Your RHO generally had the chance to invite but didn't Given that he has 3 spades, he is unlikely to force an off shape takeout double without 4 hearts, which seems unlikely given your hand. He didnt bid NT naturally, so he isnt 15-17 with a spade stop, but that is almost good news, as you will need v little with no wasted spade values.

I think its really close, and I might well bid here. I think that when you have short spades you should strain to take action, You need literally so little here: xxx AQx KQxxx xx would be a good game.

I think that bidding will likely win here. Even if it might lose in theory its a situation where it might win in practice, as they cannot always double when you are -2 and they were making 3 spades. I would think that you are about 30% to be making game here, 40% it not to matter too much, -1 vs 3s or -1 vs -1, and 30% to be -2 or more, and only some of that time will they double. So I guess that you are pretty flat in expectation. I bid in these situations, I think it gives the opponents more of a problem. They don't know if you are speculating or have a good hand. You have to play in a style where partner knows that you will push with short spades, and that he shouldn't be trying to push to slam just cause he has a 15 count with xxx spades!

[mr1303]

I really can't bid here. If I do bid every one of partner's values, how will he know what to do if I have a 16 count and KQJ to 6 hearts, which is something like what my bid should show

[Jinksy]

By my calculation, P's expected heart length is ~2.6 (assuming he has 3 spades), and expected point count is about 12. Since on most hands with 3 hearts and 12 points mostly outside Ss you're going to have a play for game*, and on many with better holdings it could be virtually laydown without P having a bid**, I think it's worth a go. I expected to get doubled less than 50% of the time when I'm going off. How often would RHO realistically raise to 3♠ at this vul if they have a penalty double of 4♥?

You don't need as good odds as when contemplating bidding game constructively IMO, since you're trading something like +50 or even -140 rather than the normal +140/+170 standard game bidding calculations are based on.


* Eg
♠ Kxx
♥ xxx
♦ QJx
♣ AQxx


** Eg
♠ Axx
♥ AJTx
♦ Kxxx
♣ xx

[phil_20686]

mr1303, on 2015-September-11, 05:06, said:

I really can't bid here. If I do bid every one of partner's values, how will he know what to do if I have a 16 count and KQJ to 6 hearts, which is something like what my bid should show

I don't really believe in thinking about what a bid "shows" in a compressed auction where partners options are limited. Being able to bid slams in these auctions is very rare. It would be completely different if you had two or three spades, as partner can take more actions when he has short spades. Also, would you float 3S on - Axxxxxx xxxx xx or something? Adjust to taste if you think that is too much. There are lots of distributional hands with very few points where you just have to act here because you have short spades and 4H can just be 100% cold.


At the very least I hope I have convinced you that you should be much more aggressive in terms of HCP when you have 0-1 spade than when you have 2-3 spades here. I would act on pretty much all decent ten counts here without thinking if I had a stiff spade and 6 hearts. x KQxxxx AJxx xx or something I would find an action. Obviously this hand is much worse than that, but you still rate to be able to make 4h a fair proportion of the hand, and given likely bounds on opponents hands the number of points that you have doesn't really affect the expected number of points that your side has very much.


You just have to do the best you can, and partner has to be aware that this auction is very pressured when you have short spades and so know that partner will struggle to act. Also, it pressures the opponents. If RHO has 3 spades and a 10-12 count he might worry over 4h that 4h is cold and 4s v cheap or cold. That 4h is flying off and he should double. He might easily just bid 4S and now your partner can double and pick up +300 from nowhere.

[Phil]

When I get a hand like this as a bidding problem it's usually from a Director.

[kuhchung]

if I were 1642 it would be more tempting but 1633 is terrible (in my non expert, non I/A opinion)

[KurtGodel]

I feel like we are at least an ace short to bid here...sure game could easily be making, but also when it isn't both the opponents have a penalty double available, and we really really could go for a lot here.

[Jinksy]

On what hands does LHO conceivably have a penalty X opposite his partner's 0+? Did he open 2♠ with a robust 5-card heart suit on the side?

[KurtGodel]

Jinksy, on 2015-September-11, 11:07, said:

On what hands does LHO conceivably have a penalty X opposite his partner's 0+? Did he open 2♠ with a robust 5-card heart suit on the side?

I presume you bid 4♥ slowly

[gszes]

PASS

Rodney Dangerfield got more respect than poor N on hands like this. Your p is listening to the bidding as well. Even if they could not act over 2s does not mean they are incapable of a delayed tox after they hear 3s and realize you are short in spades. Such an action will require some care but you should never feel compelled to bid with a really poor hand and a bad suit just because you are afraid p will pass. They are looking at their spades and they know if they have wasted values there or not let them decide. If your suit was decent
x AKJxxx xxx xxx same number of hcp but now the risk side of bidding 4h is severely limited since it is hugely unlikely you will get x.

[jogs]

Jinksy, on 2015-September-10, 15:46, said:

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Teams.

Vulnerable, I wouldn't overcall 2♥ over 1♠.

[MrAce]

Scary topic. So bridge has came down to this...sad.

[MrAce]

Jinksy, on 2015-September-11, 11:07, said:

On what hands does LHO conceivably have a penalty X opposite his partner's 0+? Did he open 2♠ with a robust 5-card heart suit on the side?

The person you should be scared of is not your opponent(s). One does not even need an opponent if he thought of 4♥, let alone bidding it.

[cherdano]

Phil, I agree with a lot you write in this thread. But I think you are going a little too far with this hand. With the bad suit, you both need a lot from partner, and RHO may well find a double when we are wrong.
I mean, compare this hand to
http://www.bridgebas...post__p__827961
where we discussed overcalling (3S) with x AKQxxx xxx xxx - a much better hand for overcalling surely. (Yes I realize the auction is very different.)

I also don't think opponents are going to get pushed so often in that auction. If opponents are good, LHO's only way to compete is with double, which RHO may well pass. (And if he doesn't, they are probably right.) Meanwhile, many (most?) would raise to 4♠ right away if they can't stand defending an unsupported 4♥ bid.
To put it differently, one of the most likely layouts is that both RHO and partner have a weak NT with three spades. Do we really want to play 4♥ in that case?