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EU Brexit thread

#101 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-May-07, 12:35

What is the "black legend"?
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#102 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2016-May-07, 13:36

I had the same question a few hours ago but luckily I remembered there was a free website out there where you can look up this sort of thing and usually get accurate answers including related reading material.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#103 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-May-07, 14:26

View PostfromageGB, on 2016-May-07, 10:38, said:

You may not know that the UK has a visa system for residential entry from countries other than the EU. People are accepted if they have skills deemed to be in demand, and are not carrying Kalashnikovs under their burkas. By EU law, anyone from the EU can choose to come to live in this country, whether there is work for them or not. If the existing visa rules were applied to them, three quarters of them would be refused, according to the Oxford University’s Migration Observatory Study commissioned by the Financial Times. Very many are coming in, and the numbers are putting pressure on services that are already under duress. If the population increases, our population density increases. It is already unpleasantly high in many areas.


And of course they come in to the areas of maximum pressure because that's where the work is.
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#104 User is offline   onoway 

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Posted 2016-May-07, 15:33

People who have a strong desire to live have seldom found arbitrary & artificial national boundaries to be very compelling if that's what's seen as what's preventing them from finding safety. This may only be the first wave of changes that climate change and old habits of interfering with other countries are going to generate, and is unlikely to change much whether Britain stays in the EU or not.

Most people generally prefer to stay in their own countries IF they can see any future in it. Visiting is one thing, moving quite another. I've seldom met anyone who just loves moving at all, but especially to a place they don't speak the language well ( or at all), don't understand the food, music or customs and are often treated in ways they don't understand, sometimes with malice but often not. Such little things.. On a back road in Mexico I once said beeped "shave and a haircut" rhythm on the car horn to say thank you to a truck driver who had pulled over to the side of the road to let me pass. Two Mexican passengers both instantly went into hysterical laughter, telling me that I'd better not stop for at least another 20 miles for any reason whatsoever. Apparently a cheerful thanks! in Canada is accusing someone of doing unspeakable things with his mother in parts of Mexico.
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#105 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-May-07, 15:46

View Postonoway, on 2016-May-07, 15:33, said:

This may only be the first wave of changes that climate change and old habits of interfering with other countries are going to generate, and is unlikely to change much whether Britain stays in the EU or not.

The Syrian refugee crisis is certainly down to climate change. Who knows where it will crop up next... :unsure:
(-: Zel :-)
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#106 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-May-07, 16:20

View Postgwnn, on 2016-May-07, 13:36, said:

I had the same question a few hours ago but luckily I remembered there was a free website out there where you can look up this sort of thing and usually get accurate answers including related reading material.


OK, found a short description. It is funny.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#107 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2016-May-07, 17:21

♫♪Land. Give me land. Lots of land....don't fence me in...♪♫

Spain, France, England. All interested in land. (British land values and ownership are a classic case of too little, too much interest in acquiring etc.)

Gold, women etc. were secondary to the availability of land, ESPECIALLY as native americans had a very poor notion about land ownership, as they were transients and not interested in land that had provided what was available. Europeans understood fences, ownership and land rights.

France and Spain colonized around the world. England instituted genocide in BNA,(residential schools anyone?) and only left the French in Lower Canada "free" to pursue their heritage because they needed them to continue to steal land from the natives. The Americans continued the parade with Manifest Destiny and the "pacification" (read elimination) of all native peoples.

Human existence is a culture war that heats up into genocide when crowding occurs. So what else is new?
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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#108 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-May-07, 17:39

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2016-May-07, 17:21, said:


Gold, women etc. were secondary to the availability of land, ESPECIALLY as native americans had a very poor notion about land ownership, as they were transients and not interested in land that had provided what was available. Europeans understood fences, ownership and land rights.



The native Americans had a poor notion about land ownership? It is a completely artificial concept.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#109 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2016-May-08, 04:52

View PostfromageGB, on 2016-May-07, 10:38, said:

You may not know that the UK has a visa system for residential entry from countries other than the EU. People are accepted if they have skills deemed to be in demand, and are not carrying Kalashnikovs under their burkas. By EU law, anyone from the EU can choose to come to live in this country, whether there is work for them or not. If the existing visa rules were applied to them, three quarters of them would be refused, according to the Oxford University’s Migration Observatory Study commissioned by the Financial Times. Very many are coming in, and the numbers are putting pressure on services that are already under duress. If the population increases, our population density increases. It is already unpleasantly high in many areas.


If the existing visa rules were applied to retiree Brits living in southern Spain, how many of them will be eligible? I wonder, does the UK Govt pay for their medical expenses incurred in Spain?

In any case, I concluded a long time ago that I favour the UK remaining inside the EU. Nothing will make me change my view....
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#110 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2016-May-08, 05:09

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-May-07, 15:46, said:

The Syrian refugee crisis is certainly down to climate change. Who knows where it will crop up next... :unsure:

Climate change seems to be triggered by USA foreign policy. The influx of migrants to Europe from North Africa this year is already progressing at a higher rate than it was last year. Who shall we shoot up next?

No wonder O'Barmy does not agree with climate change mitigation.
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#111 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2016-May-08, 05:22

View PostVampyr, on 2016-May-07, 17:39, said:

The native Americans had a poor notion about land ownership? It is a completely artificial concept.

Well, they certainly had definite concepts about land occupation, tribal (each Nation) delineations and the ability to raid other nation's encampments. (They are human after all.) Not having a notion about "owning" what is (relatively) free is, in itself, a concept. ;)
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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#112 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2016-May-08, 05:25

View PostfromageGB, on 2016-May-08, 05:09, said:

Climate change seems to be triggered by USA foreign policy. The influx of migrants to Europe from North Africa this year is already progressing at a higher rate than it was last year. Who shall we shoot up next?

No wonder O'Barmy does not agree with climate change mitigation.

A much more valid estimation, indeed. Syria is in a typical drought and overall, the Middle East is having more or less typical weather. The expenditures on weapons reap greater profits but the never-ending need for tax revenues does require "valid" justifications....like being able to change the weather.
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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#113 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2016-May-15, 01:52

Oh dear, Boris Johnson has just played the Hitler card and invoked Godwin's Law. Guess that means he has lost, then.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

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2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#114 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2016-May-15, 02:02

View Post1eyedjack, on 2016-May-15, 01:52, said:

Oh dear, Boris Johnson has just played the Hitler card and invoked Godwin's Law. Guess that means he has lost, then.

Seems a reasonable conclusion to having Obama back staying and Trump back leaving.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#115 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-May-15, 04:21

Apparently the European establishment want Britain to stay and the European people support our leaving. Well based on the ESC results anyway! :)
(-: Zel :-)
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#116 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2016-May-15, 05:45

View Post1eyedjack, on 2016-May-15, 01:52, said:

Oh dear, Boris Johnson has just played the Hitler card and invoked Godwin's Law. Guess that means he has lost, then.

The biggest mistake Johnson and Gove have made is refusing to share a table with Farage. The second biggest is lack of planning.
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#117 User is offline   StevenG 

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Posted 2016-May-15, 06:24

View PostfromageGB, on 2016-May-15, 05:45, said:

The biggest mistake Johnson and Gove have made is refusing to share a table with Farage.

Why? They need a broad church. It's hard enough for those of us who will be voting out from a lettish-wing position to stomach being in the same camp as Johnson, Gove, Grayling, Duncan Smith, Fox, etc.. Expecting us to accept Farage as well is one step too far.
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#118 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2016-May-15, 06:35

Here in Canada, we live like the flea on the elephant's back. Trade/immigration etc. relations are generally good while a modicum of sovereignty is exercised. Clearly, were we to become a "risk" it would be another kettle of fish. NAFTA et al are all attempts to satisfy local concerns about inequality (At a bigger or smaller scale depending on whether it is softwood "subsidies" or car manufacturing deals. (Auto-pact of bye-gone days.))

The only issue of significance AFAICS is that of elective, representative democracy. If, within a union, you have no say and little recourse for amendment or adjudication, then that union will not satisfy at least one party. Can unelected officials impose laws on GB? Can GB opt out or otherwise unilaterally avoid such situations? If not, then are they indeed a nation (of laws and people)?
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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#119 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2016-May-15, 12:05

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2016-May-15, 06:35, said:

Can unelected officials impose laws on GB? Can GB opt out or otherwise unilaterally avoid such situations?

Yes. No.
But there are many more issues of significance than that, although that is one of the biggest.
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#120 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2016-May-15, 12:17

View PostStevenG, on 2016-May-15, 06:24, said:

Why? They need a broad church. It's hard enough for those of us who will be voting out from a lettish-wing position to stomach being in the same camp as Johnson, Gove, Grayling, Duncan Smith, Fox, etc.. Expecting us to accept Farage as well is one step too far.

Those of us voting out from a centrist position have to tolerate left-wingers such as Ian Duncan Smith, but I see your point. However, UKIP has been advocating leave for a long time, it is the party's sole objective, and a coordinated approach with input from all concerned could have provided a very strong case for Brexit. As it is, it seems lacklustre, piecemeal, and ill-prepared.

Something else that disappoints me is Corbyn's bowing to the MPs rather than standing up for his principles. He does have principles, and was elected by the people for them. It is a shame.
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