[Liversidge]

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We play a weak No Trump. I bid 2♦, partner bid 2NT, I bid 3♣, partner passed.

Should I have doubled for penalties?
Is there a Landy equivalent for the minors?

[Vampyr]

Liversidge, on 2016-June-16, 16:34, said:

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We play a weak No Trump. I bid 2♦, partner bid 2NT, I bid 3♣, partner passed.

Should I have doubled for penalties?
Is there a Landy equivalent for the minors?

2NT would show the minors. Double ludicrous.

[rmnka447]

I agree that direct or reopening 2 NT should show the minors.

Typically you don't double for penalties unless you've got a huge hand or a hand where there's great potential that you can set up a large number of tricks quickly and be able to get in to cash them. The hand you're asking about has some points, but the broken suits may take some time to set up so doubling is dangerous. It isn't clear whether the opening 1 NT in this auction was strong or weak. But in either case, it's possible for the opponents to have up to 23-24 points and not bid. So a double may be really stepping into the soup. Yet with all the distribution you have, playing in a minor part score doesn't rate to be too bad.

[Vampyr]

rmnka447, on 2016-June-16, 23:11, said:

I agree that direct or reopening 2 NT should show the minors.

Typically you don't double for penalties unless you've got a huge hand or a hand where there's great potential that you can set up a large number of tricks quickly and be able to get in to cash them. The hand you're asking about has some points, but the broken suits may take some time to set up so doubling is dangerous. It isn't clear whether the opening 1 NT in this auction was strong or weak. But in either case, it's possible for the opponents to have up to 23-24 points and not bid. So a double may be really stepping into the soup. Yet with all the distribution you have, playing in a minor part score doesn't rate to be too bad.

And do not forget that a) partner is on lead and b) they will probably have little trouble escaping to a major.

[NickRW]

Liversidge, on 2016-June-16, 16:34, said:

Is there a Landy equivalent for the minors?

2NT. (It is possible to hold a natural 2NT bid, especially if the opening is a weak NT, but you'd normally X with that, so 2NT must be some sort of 2 suiter)

[Liversidge]

NickRW, on 2016-June-17, 02:11, said:

2NT. (It is possible to hold a natural 2NT bid, especially if the opening is a weak NT, but you'd normally X with that, so 2NT must be some sort of 2 suiter)

Do you 'bprrow a king' in the protective seat, as here?

[GrahamJson]

Agree that 2NT would show the minors, although some play that it can be any big two suiter or even two way; minors or big two suitor.

As things went 2D was reasonable, especially if playing with an unfamiliar partner. However 3C was a bit feeble. 4C would show your values better. 3NT would be a reasonable gamble. E did not take out 1NT so it is unlikely that there is a five card major around. Also the 1NT opening should help you place the oppo cards possibly enabling you to make 3NT on less than the normal values.

You say that you play a weak NT. I assume that this applies to oppo too. If the opening was 15-17 then your 3C bid is maybe more reasonable. However in this case it seems unlikely that partner will have values for his 2NT bid. I trust he is not one of those that you see on BBO who like to make "clever" bids and then blame partner for not reading their minds.

[Liversidge]

GrahamJson, on 2016-June-17, 03:29, said:

Agree that 2NT would show the minors, although some play that it can be any big two suiter or even two way; minors or big two suitor.

As things went 2D was reasonable, especially if playing with an unfamiliar partner. However 3C was a bit feeble. 4C would show your values better. 3NT would be a reasonable gamble. E did not take out 1NT so it is unlikely that there is a five card major around. Also the 1NT opening should help you place the oppo cards possibly enabling you to make 3NT on less than the normal values.

You say that you play a weak NT. I assume that this applies to oppo too. If the opening was 15-17 then your 3C bid is maybe more reasonable. However in this case it seems unlikely that partner will have values for his 2NT bid. I trust he is not one of those that you see on BBO who like to make "clever" bids and then blame partner for not reading their minds.

Partner had 11 HCP and four clubs (Axxx). We made 5 clubs. I made an elementary error assuming that my club bid was forcing (I remembered reding somewhere that a new suit at the 3 level is forcing) but afterwards was advised by an experienced player that this doesn't apply in this situation. I assume that's because we were competing, and also because partner had bid No Trumps, but would appreciate confirmation of this.

[maartenxq]

Liversidge, on 2016-June-16, 16:34, said:

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We play a weak No Trump. I bid 2♦, partner bid 2NT, I bid 3♣, partner passed.

Should I have doubled for penalties?
Is there a Landy equivalent for the minors?

As already stated 2 nt is clearly for minors. As it went however, P bids 2 NT. This should indicate some values and I think u have enough for 3 NT.

[GrahamJson]

Liversidge, on 2016-June-17, 04:12, said:

Partner had 11 HCP and four clubs (Axxx). We made 5 clubs. I made an elementary error assuming that my club bid was forcing (I remembered reding somewhere that a new suit at the 3 level is forcing) but afterwards was advised by an experienced player that this doesn't apply in this situation. I assume that's because we were competing, and also because partner had bid No Trumps, but would appreciate confirmation of this.

A new suit at the three lever is usually forcing in a constructive auction, i.e no opposition bidding. There are one or two exceptions, such as 1S-1NT-2S (or 2H/D)-3C. In this sequence the 1NT bidder is showing a weakish hand with long clubs, e.g X xx Qxx Kxxxxxx. When opponents are bidding, especially if they have opened, such rules go out of the window and new suits are often just an attempt to find a safe spot. In such cases cue bids of oppo's suit are used to show strength. However, as usual in bridge there are no hard and fast rules; you have to use your logic and judgment. For example, if an experienced partner introduces a new suit at a high level you sometimes have to ask yourself whether it can realistically be an attempt to play there. For example, if you overcall 2H and partner, who has previously passed, competes at some stage with 2C it is unlikely that he holds just lots of clubs as if so he would have bid them earlier. He is more likely showing a heart fit and a good club holding, such as X Kxxx xx AKxxxx. This information could be very helpful when judging to pass/double/bid on over oppo's 4S bid. Of course, this requires your partner to be a good player and one who trusts you tou make the correct inference.

[NickRW]

Liversidge, on 2016-June-17, 02:57, said:

Do you 'bprrow a king' in the protective seat, as here?

There is less tendency to do that over an opening NT (weak or strong). You know that they probably have about 23hcp tops, therefore you can calculate the minimum high card holding for partner. Deciding whether to come in when in the protective seat has more to do with your shape (and the suitability thereof for whatever defence to 1NT your playing) and the vulnerability (both nv you should strain to find a bid if you can as you won't get rich at 50 a time for their undertricks if you can make something yourself, and if you can't make something they're probably not doubling you while they probably had 90 or 120 their way).

P.S. But your partner must not go bonkers and hang you out to dry in the bidding just because they've got a decent looking 11 count or whatever. Advancer must realise that the protective overcaller has already bid all the assets anyway. The thing which might get advancer excited has more to do with exceptional fit than high cards.

[Liversidge]

NickRW, on 2016-June-17, 07:31, said:

There is less tendency to do that over an opening NT (weak or strong). You know that they probably have about 23hcp tops, therefore you can calculate the minimum high card holding for partner. Deciding whether to come in when in the protective seat has more to do with your shape (and the suitability thereof for whatever defence to 1NT your playing) and the vulnerability (both nv you should strain to find a bid if you can as you won't get rich at 50 a time for their undertricks if you can make something yourself, and if you can't make something they're probably not doubling you while they probably had 90 or 120 their way).

P.S. But your partner must not go bonkers and hang you out to dry in the bidding just because they've got a decent looking 11 count or whatever. Advancer must realise that the protective overcaller has already bid all the assets anyway. The thing which might get advancer excited has more to do with exceptional fit than high cards.

Many thanks. Just what I needed.

[msjennifer]

I play 2NT over opponents 1NT in immediate or last seat as TO in Minors,and the given hand is an ideally suited one for this bid..For other suit combinations there are many treatments available eg.Landy,Astro,Aspro,Cappeletti etc.as per individuals liking.

[kuhchung]

i would've doubled and just hope that they're in trouble, which it sounds like they were

[wank]

2nt shows the minors if you agree it shows the minors. there are other perfectly sensible meanings for 2NT in a landy context. i certainly don't play it as minors myself.