[msjennifer]

 nekthen, on 2016-July-05, 09:44, said:

Bid 3♥ over 1♦

Your suggestion is wrong because 1D - 3 H is a splinter bid showing a singleton or void in heart with Diamonds as agreed suit and slam oriented .What do you bid on Axx,x,KQJxxx,Kxx when P opens 1 D? Or do you suggest a direct 4NT on such a hand.?

[Stephen Tu]

Meaning of 1♦-3♥ is dependent on partnership agreement. Its meaning has changed over the years, splinter is common these days but in older days it was played much like 1♦-4♥, a preemptive bid, just less length than 4♥ typically.

As for the question as what to do with your example hand, the answer is to bid 4♥ and try to make it, which it will sometimes. Partner can come up with ace of a black suit, a couple pitches on the diamonds, and maybe KH or working hook. Or other ways to cover 4 losers. Or I suppose you can bid 3♥ then 4♥, I don't know if most partnerships have really strong agreements on this sequence of the difference.

The reason no one (non PhilG division) plays 3♥ as non-forcing is that it's just extremely low utility. You are catering to hands that make exactly 9 tricks in hearts but not 10 or more, not 9 tricks in nt, and hands that make 9 tricks in hearts but not in diamonds. And I suppose hands that go down fewer tricks in hearts than in diamonds. This can happen, certainly, but the number of these is tiny compared to the number of hands with 6 hearts that don't have enough texture to insist on hearts, where 3nt might be better. You want to have a bid that unambiguously shows 6+ H rather than sticking all forcing calls into 3♠. Plus this gives you a forcing call on slam auctions. It's just not worth it to lose the call to win on the sliver of hands that make 9 tricks in hearts but nothing else.

If the hand were weaker and 3♥ was played as splinter, some partnerships would have the option of bidding a 2♥ weak jump shift despite the 7th heart. Actual hand you posted I would consider a bit too strong for a 2♥ wjs that's normally 6 cds.

[Zelandakh]

 msjennifer, on 2016-July-05, 22:51, said:

Your suggestion is wrong because 1D - 3 H is a splinter bid showing a singleton or void in heart with Diamonds as agreed suit and slam oriented .What do you bid on Axx,x,KQJxxx,Kxx when P opens 1 D? Or do you suggest a direct 4NT on such a hand.?

The meaning of 3♥ is dependent on agreements. There are many alternatives for your example hand - a simple 2♦ inverted raise; a 3♣ response that shows an undisclosed splinter raise; various schemes in which the GF splinter raises are included in a 2♥, 2♠ or 2NT response along with other hand types; relay schemes based around a 1♥ or 1NT response; and probably some others too.

Since we are talking about Acol, the traditional meaning is a weak hand with long hearts. In recent times, both the splinter as well as the fit jump have overtaken this in popularity, at least at a high level. At club level outside of London, I would guess that natural and weak is still the default choice for most pairs.

[mathboy]

 msjennifer, on 2016-July-05, 01:59, said:

We all know that 3D is a passable bid.If it is so then I can not understand how 3H a rebid in the same suit can be taken as game forcing.What is responder supposed to bid on xxx ,AQJ9876,void,xxx? In this particular hand if a game force is to be made then it should be in a new suit.Actually I don't mind bidding 4C .If partner has xx or xxx in hearts he will bid 4H.I don't mind playing in 5D with a singleton in spades and xx in D.I am certainly going to bid a game on this holding even at the cost of bypassing 3 NT.

3H is GF，so you need to bid 4H（not strong enough for GF，just to play).

[kenberg]

 msjennifer, on 2016-July-05, 01:59, said:

We all know that 3D is a passable bid.If it is so then I can not understand how 3H a rebid in the same suit can be taken as game forcing.What is responder supposed to bid on xxx ,AQJ9876,void,xxx? In this particular hand if a game force is to be made then it should be in a new suit.Actually I don't mind bidding 4C .If partner has xx or xxx in hearts he will bid 4H.I don't mind playing in 5D with a singleton in spades and xx in D.I am certainly going to bid a game on this holding even at the cost of bypassing 3 NT.

If you play that 3H over 3D is non-forcing then there will be hands where this will work well. And there will be hands, I think far more hands, where it will work badly.

I will illustrate with a different situation. I was playing the other day with a partner who likes 2H-2S, uncontested, to be non-forcing. I opened 2H on a 1=6=4=2 hand with a strongish heart suit. He bid 2S. I duly alerted and explained that we play it as non-forcing. Upon further inquiry I explained that as I understood our agreement it was not even particularly constructive, simply to play. 2S was passed out. He had eight spades headed by the KQ. A success? As it turned out, yes. He can be held to 8 tricks but he made 9. I can, perhaps, take eight tricks in hearts (he has the diamond KT opposite my Qxxx, the J is well placed, I can lead my spade, establish a spade trick, and get to it. for five heart tricks, two diamonds and a spade, but timing may be an issue) and no way I can make 9. They can make 3C but didn't bid it.

So sure, such hands arise and it can work out, maybe with a little help. But I also get good hands with a six card spade suit and when partner opens 2H they are hard to bid if 2S is to play. I can live with various agreements, as long as I know what they are, but I have preferences. I think playing 2S as forcing when partner opens a weak 2H is better, and I think playing 3H as forcing after 1D-1H-3D is better.

And in both cases, forcing is standard.

[Cyberyeti]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-July-06, 02:48, said:

The meaning of 3♥ is dependent on agreements. There are many alternatives for your example hand - a simple 2♦ inverted raise; a 3♣ response that shows an undisclosed splinter raise; various schemes in which the GF splinter raises are included in a 2♥, 2♠ or 2NT response along with other hand types; relay schemes based around a 1♥ or 1NT response; and probably some others too.

Since we are talking about Acol, the traditional meaning is a weak hand with long hearts. In recent times, both the splinter as well as the fit jump have overtaken this in popularity, at least at a high level. At club level outside of London, I would guess that natural and weak is still the default choice for most pairs.

Even in Norfolk where we're 15 years behind most of the UK, most pairs in our clubs play 1♦-3♥ as a splinter.

[dave_beer]

 Stephen Tu, on 2016-July-04, 08:57, said:

K-S plays the minor jump rebid as a rock crusher GF hand. The non-forcing invitational hands are put through fragment reverses and forcing 2♣ rebid. Only somewhat well known system I know of that arranges rebids this way.

Fantunes plays 3♦ as an Acol 2-bid but it isn't forcing since the opening bid was forcing and responder could have nothing

[zillahandp]

3h