[Kungsgeten]

We have this sequence in our system:

1♣-1♦; 1NT

Opener have 22+ NT or a GF unbalanced hand, excluding: spades as longest suit; 5-5 hands; long single-suiters wanting to set trumps.
Responder has 0--7 hcp (excluding 0--4 with a 6-card major), or 8--10 NT without a four card major.

Currently we use 2♣ as "waiting" with almost all of responder's hands. Bidding a suit instead of 2♣ shows HHxxxx.

The idea here is to somewhat mimic a standard strong 2♣ opening; being in familiar territory. The strong opener describes his hand. I'm however considering if we should have the weak hand describing more often? My partner is concerned this may "preempt" the stong hand. My thoughts were:

1♣-1♦; 1NT--
2♣ = Waiting, not suitable for other bid.
2♦♥ = Transfer, 5+ major and 5--7 hcp.
2♠ = 8--10 NT
2NT = Transfer, 6+ clubs, 5--7 hcp
3♣ = Transfer, 6+ diamonds, 5--7 hcp

[nullve]

Using essentially the same relay structure that I've posted many times before, maybe

1♣-1♦; 1N-2♣(waiting); ?:

2♦ = "5+ D or 4441", unbal. / 22-24 bal.
...2♥ = GF relay
......2♠ = 22-24 "bal."
......2N+ = R(♦)
2♥ = 5+ H, unbal.
...2♠ = relay
......2N+ = R(♥)
2♠ = 25+ "bal."
2N+ = R(♣)

R(x):

2N = 5x4lo, 6+x4+lo or 6+ x, 1-suited
...3♣ = relay
......3♦ = 6+ x, 1-suited
......3♥+ = S(x,lo)
3♣ = 5x4mi or 6+x4+mi
...3♦ = relay
......3♥+ = S(x,mi)
3♦ = "5x5m or (4441)"
...3♥ = relay
......3♠(x=♣) = "4144"?
......3♠(x!=♣) = 5x5C
......3N(x=♣) = "1444"?
......3N(x=♦) = "4441"
......3N(x=♥) = 5H5D
......4♣ = "4414"?
3♥+ = S(x,hi)

S(x,y):

3♥ = 5x4y22 or 6x4y
...3♠ = relay, 2+ x
......3N = 5x4y22
......4♣+ = 6x4y
3♠ = "5x4y13"
3N = "5x4y31"
4♣+ = very distributional hands

?

[newroad]

Hi Kungsgeten,

As a general matter, I agree with your partner - weak hand should in general get out of the way of strong hand.

There is no particular danger in lightening up the requirements for a (natural) 2H continuation, as it can't pre-empt partner. If, for reasons of symmetry and/or major suit bias, you want to lighten up the requirements for a 2S response as well, fair enough: you only pre-empt partner when they hold hearts and you get a useful bid in much of the time. Pluses and minuses. I wouldn't lighten up the requirements for minor showing.

Regards, Newroad

[Kungsgeten]

nullve: Looks pretty nice! In our case we do not have 5-5 hands in this situations though (they bid 1♣-1♦; 2NT/3♣/3♦). My question was mostly over eventual alternatives to responder's rebids, but any suggestions are welcome ofcourse After the waiting bid, we currently do the following:

1♣-1♦; 1NT-2♣;
2♦ = 22-24 NT (mimics our Mexican 2♦ opening, and the 1♣-1♦; 2♦ rebid showing 20-21).
2♥ = Natural
2♠ = Clubs (2NT relays, and same structure as with diamonds below)
2NT = 25+ NT
3♣ = 5+ diamonds and a four card side suit (3♦ asks)
3♦ = 6+ diamonds, no shortness
3♥ = 6+ diamonds, short clubs
3♠ = 6+ diamonds, short hearts
3NT = 6+ diamonds, short spades, NF
4♣ = Too good for 3NT

[straube]

Something like...

2C-0-4 any or 8-10 bal
2D-5-7, H
2H-5-7, S
2S-5-7, no major

with other bids to handle 6m and both major hands

An advantage of this is clarifying your point ranges and establishing GF auctions.

[nullve]

Kungsgeten, on 2016-October-21, 12:18, said:

My question was mostly over eventual alternatives to responder's rebids

straube, on 2016-October-21, 14:01, said:

Something like...

2C-0-4 any or 8-10 bal
2D-5-7, H
2H-5-7, S
2S-5-7, no major

with other bids to handle 6m and both major hands

An advantage of this is clarifying your point ranges and establishing GF auctions.

A combination of what straube suggested and the structure over

1♣(Swedish)-1♦; 1♥-1♠(0-7, any); 1N(20+, any)

I posted here:

1♣-1♦; 1N-?:

2♣ = 0-4, 4- S / 5-7, bal. w/ red card majority / 5-7, "unbal. w/ 5+ D or 4441" / 8-10 bal., 3-S3-H
...2♦ = GF relay
......2♥ = 0-4, 4- S / 8-10 bal., 3-S3-H
.........2♠ = relay
............2N = 0-4, 4- H / 8-10, 3-S3-H
............3♣+ = 0-4, 5+ H [in analogy with 3♣+ over 1♣-1♦; 1N-2♦; 2♥-2♠; 2N]
......2♠ = 5-7, bal. w/ red card majority (=> 2N = relay)
......2N+ = 5-7, R(♦)
...2♥ = 22-24 bal. (=> P = 5+ H, very weak)
...(...)
2♦ = 0-4, 5+ S / 5-7, "5+ H, unbal."
...2♥ = GF relay
......2♠ = 0-4, 5+ S (=> 2N = relay)
......2N+ = 5-7, R(♥)
...2♠ = 22-24 bal. (=> P = 5+ S, very weak)
...(...)
2♥ = 5-7, "5+ S, unbal."
...2♠ = relay
......2N+ = R(♠)
...(...)
2♠ = 5-7, bal. w/ black card majority (=> 2N = relay)
2N+ = 5-7, R(♣).

[Zelandakh]

You could continue to mimic a strong 2♣ opening a level lower by playing 2♦ as a bust and using 2♥+ to show a good suit.

[PrecisionL]

Or you could change responders' replies to 1♣ with weak hands:

1♦ = 0-7 hcp and 4+♥
1♥ = 0-7 hcp and 4+♠
1♠ = 0-7 hcp and no 4-cd major
Now, opener could rebid 2♣ asking for Aces and Kings (controls).

This approach is known as The Millennium Club and has been published in paperback by Poe.

[Kungsgeten]

PrecisionL: The Millenium Club is better defined compared to our Swedish Club. I think weak transfer responses perhaps could work, but it would be hard to distiguish opener's hand, establish a GF etc. If you mean that 1D, 1H and 1S are always 0-7, then I think three bids are way too much for negatives. One idea I've toyed with is having 1D as negative or hearts, but the auction easily get foggy when fourth hand enters the auction.

Zel: 2D as a bust is an idea, now it may be hard to distinguish 22-24 NT from GF balanced hands though (unless they jump to 3NT)?

nullve + straube: Something like that could work. I think nullve's structure is a bit complicated for a fairly uncommon sequence, but perhaps if other systemic situations are similar.

[Zelandakh]

Kungsgeten, on 2016-November-18, 08:16, said:

PrecisionL: The Millenium Club is better defined compared to our Swedish Club. I think weak transfer responses perhaps could work, but it would be hard to distiguish opener's hand, establish a GF etc.

The bigger issue might well be the auction 1♣ - 1♠; 1NT - P - (X) although transfers opposite a Swedish Club structure are always worth considering.

Kungsgeten, on 2016-November-18, 08:16, said:

Zel: 2D as a bust is an idea, now it may be hard to distinguish 22-24 NT from GF balanced hands though (unless they jump to 3NT)?

Kokish seems to be an easier solution here, with, for example, 1♣ - 1♦; 1NT - 2♦; 2NT = 22-23 balanced and 1♣ - 1♦; 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ = 24+ balanced or GF with hearts.

[PrecisionL]

Posting problems.

[PrecisionL]

Kungsgeten said:

1479478609[/url]' post='904776']
PrecisionL: The Millenium Club is better defined compared to our Swedish Club. I think weak transfer responses perhaps could work, but it would be hard to distiguish opener's hand, establish a GF etc. If you mean that 1D, 1H and 1S are always 0-7, then I think three bids are way too much for negatives. One idea I've toyed with is having 1D as negative or hearts, but the auction easily get foggy when fourth hand enters the auction.

All I can say is that I have been playing this version of a strong club for 10 years (with a few modifications for 1NT and 2 club responses to 1 club) and the results have been very good. I will be playing this System in the mini-Blue Ribbon Pairs in Orlando.

[PrecisionL]

Sorry, double post from IPad.