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Multi 2d followup - useless sequence?

#1 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-January-30, 03:27

2*-2NT
3**-3?

*=multi
**=minimum with spades

I strugle to find a useful definition of 3. Drop-dead is an option, maybe? Natural invite or natural forcing is of questionable value since it is not clear what such a hand would have done if opener had shown a max (or if opps had interfered). Biedemeijer defined it as a general game try in spades, asking for a "good minimum", but that strikes me as useless since if you really want to seperate three different strengths, it would be better to play
2-2NT
3*-3**
*=intermediate or max with spades
**=non-forcing
since that will at least right-side the contract.

I suppose a help suit trial or such is also a possible meaning? Or maybe a cuebid agreeing spades?
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#2 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-January-30, 04:00

 helene_t, on 2017-January-30, 03:27, said:

Natural invite or natural forcing is of questionable value since it is not clear what such a hand would have done if opener had shown a max (or if opps had interfered).

I assume you play

2-2N; ?:

3 = MIN w/ H
3 = MIN w/ S

and either

1)

3 = MAX w/ H
3 = MAX w/ S [will bury any 5-3 H fit]

or

2)

3 = MAX w/ S
3 = MAX w/ H [will bury any 5-3 S fit].

Change those to

1')

3 = MAX w/ H
...3 = GF, 5+ S
3 = MAX w/ S and 2- H
3N = MAX w/ S and 3 H

and

2')

3 = MAX w/ S
...3 = GF, 5+ H
3 = MAX w/ H and 2- S
3N = MAX w/ H and 3 S.

Then it makes perfect sense to play

2-2N; 3-3 = GF, 5+ H.
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#3 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2017-January-30, 04:57

I used to play 2D-2N-3D-3H as asking partner to bid game if they had a good suit. Now I agree it is better played as natural GF.
Wayne Somerville
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#4 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-January-30, 05:41

Thanks.

But if 3 is natural GF, what would such a hand do after
2-2NT
3*
*max with spades
?

I suppose you could, if 3 is now forcing, making 4m show a choice of game with hearts. Or, alternatively, if 3 is not forcing, play 4 as a slam try in hearts or COG while 4 is a slam try in spades but I think it becomes a bit cluttered.

I'd rather just respond 2 if I have a constructive hand with long hearts and short spades.
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#5 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2017-January-30, 06:51

If you play 2D 3H as p/c (I thought this was standard but maybe not) then the call needs to be natural.

If you have a direct way to show hearts the call is useless. Its also not coming up a whole lot so keeping it as DNE is fine too.
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#6 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2017-January-30, 07:05

You could play it as a shortage ask.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-January-30, 07:08

Back in the days when I used to play a multi with a massive range for the weak 2, we used to play:

2-2N
3(on a range of 1-4 with 1 being the weakest, a 1,2 or 4 weak 2 in spades)-3(which ?)
3 - 1
4 - 2
anything else - 4
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#8 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-January-30, 07:24

 Phil, on 2017-January-30, 06:51, said:

If you play 2D 3H as p/c (I thought this was standard but maybe not) then the call needs to be natural.

If you have a direct way to show hearts the call is useless. Its also not coming up a whole lot so keeping it as DNE is fine too.

Yes, 3 is P/C.

I thought it was standard that a constructive hand with hearts starts with 2, expecting to get another bite? Yes, we may play 2 in our 12-card fit but even then, opps usually have a 10-card spades fit so they might rescue us.
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#9 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-February-01, 18:15

Some options I have seen:-

1. General game try - this allows you to split your weak 2 range into 3 parts instead of 2. I believe this is the most commonly used meaning.
2. Suit quality ask - this gets you back some of what you lost by not playing Ogust but is more common if 3 showed a maximum.
3. Shortage ask - similar to #2 but against a shortage query. Notice that this cannot be done below 3NT so it requires a hand willing to play at least 4; thus it probably also combines better wih 3 max.
4. GF and natural - probably not very good theoretically but keeping your unusual bids natural is not such a bad idea.
5. Slammy with a specific minor - this fills in a gap in some response structures that use an immediate 3 or 3 for something else.
(-: Zel :-)
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#10 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-February-01, 22:19

I don't usually play Multi, but I thought that 2-2NT; 3 = maximum with spades was standard.
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#11 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-February-02, 03:14

 Vampyr, on 2017-February-01, 22:19, said:

I don't usually play Multi, but I thought that 2-2NT; 3 = maximum with spades was standard.

There are 2 common schemes of the 2x2 type. One is:-
3 = max,
3 = max,
3 = min,
3 = min,

...and the other is:-
3 = min,
3 = min,
3 = max,
3 = max,

The other type of scheme uses 3 to show multiple hand types, often a specific range with an unknown suit, with 3 sorting it out, thus making the response structure a little more condensed.
(-: Zel :-)
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#12 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2017-February-08, 16:15

In Australia ...

2 - 2NT - 3/ is not allowed.

So 3 shows hearts, any strength.

One advantage of this is that responder will declare game in opener's suit, whether weak or strong.
This is quite important.

After 2 - 2NT - 3

responder bids 3 to invite, which opener obviously passes with a minimum, accepts with a maximum.
On hands where responder is interested in game in one major but not the other, p/c response of 2/ works fine.

So Helene's is always available as natural, forcing if you wish, though could be a GF spade raise, requiring opener to cue a shortage.
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#13 User is offline   Trick13 

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Posted 2017-February-09, 17:54

In New Zealand ...

'Unders and Overs' is popular: with a minimum, bid 1-under your suit; with a maximum, bid 1-over. This means partner can play the hand.

3 shows the balanced 20-22 hand if that is one of your options (for us, it isn't and we use it to show 5).
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