[silvr bull]

This was not a goulash. Really! But BBO often recycles hands that look like they started in a goulash zoo.
This was MPs and both sides vul. What do you do with your 9 card H suit?

---

[FelicityR]

In 3rd position you could consider something, but in 2nd it's definitely a no go. Just pass. Even at white/red.

[alok c]

4♥

[rmnka447]

Pass.

In 2nd seat, one opponent has already shown less than an opener, so the probability that the opponents have game or more has decreased. Normally, then, it only makes sense to have fairly solid preempts. This is especially true, when vulnerable, where down 1 doubled is a worse result than any part score their way.

Here, you've got 2 HCP and RHO has passed. Give RHO a good pass hand, say, something like 10 HCP and that leaves about 28 HCP to be split between LHO and partner. Evenly split that leaves each hand with about 14 HCP. Partner's points are just a tad more valuable for being behind LHO. So, chances are that the opponents are a little short of game unless there's a less likely big imbalance of how the points are distributed between the remaining hands. So, the possibility of a doubled set versus a part score are there.

[Stefan_O]

Probably, we have 7 heart tricks with no help from pd.
Conservative style, open 3H (no worse than -500 doubled, against their 600+ game).
Aggressive style (assume pd can help with one trick somewhere), open 4H.

[msjennifer]

Any bid except PASS is a bad bid in second seat .The WORST possible bid is 4Hearts.I shall pass.
I fully agree with rmnka447 and the argument that has been made therein.

[U19]

according to rule of 2/3, Five winning tricks,2!h is considerable.

[GrahamJson]

One of the risks of opening 4H, and to a lesser extent 3H, is that partner could hold something like AKxx Q AK Axxxxx and will bid six trusting you for a suit headed by at least KJ.

[Cyberyeti]

rmnka447, on 2017-March-30, 15:02, said:

Pass.

In 2nd seat, one opponent has already shown less than an opener, so the probability that the opponents have game or more has decreased. Normally, then, it only makes sense to have fairly solid preempts. This is especially true, when vulnerable, where down 1 doubled is a worse result than any part score their way.

Here, you've got 2 HCP and RHO has passed. Give RHO a good pass hand, say, something like 10 HCP and that leaves about 28 HCP to be split between LHO and partner. Evenly split that leaves each hand with about 14 HCP. Partner's points are just a tad more valuable for being behind LHO. So, chances are that the opponents are a little short of game unless there's a less likely big imbalance of how the points are distributed between the remaining hands. So, the possibility of a doubled set versus a part score are there.

Unfortunately partner had Axxxx, AK, AKx, Jxx and went down in 1♠ with 6♥ cold, opps had 10/9 and 4th seat had too many spades to want to protect.

It is not danger free to pass. Not sure what I'd do at the table, probably 2♥ which for us can be a near bust, and if partner inquires I'll bid 4♥ showing something bad and distributional, but more difficult if you play more normal weak 2s.

[Joe_Old]

Worst case scenario: you have five tricks, -1400 in 4♥. But in that case it is hard to construct a hand where the opponents don't make 12 or 13 tricks unless all finesses lose to partner. Assuming that your 4 level openers deny an A or K outside, a 4♥ bid here gives partner a good picture (I admit that having a 9 card suit makes me bolder, any color but red v white). It would never occur to me to bid 2 or 3 here, absent special agreements like Cyberyeti's, because the suit length calls for a bigger pre-empt. When you have a hand that can most accurately be described in one bid, take it.

This is MP's, and a bad guess on one board will not throw a match. I'm not sure that I would chance bidding on this mess if the game were IMP's because partner could have enough stuff sitting behind North to defeat a high level contract, and still be of no use to you.

Also, if you pass initially, a hand with a very long, weak suit and zero defense is very difficult to show. If you pass, then bid and partner makes a high level penalty double, you will be (almost) 100% obligated to pull it. Further, you have no support for any suit partner might have, and your hand is valueless on offense except in ♥. On defense the hand doesn't even offer a first round ruff.

I vote 4♥.

[Joe_Old]

Was is Edgar Kaplan who said, "what do you call an eight card suit? Trump." Hard to believe that a nine card suit would be any different.

[johnu]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-March-31, 07:13, said:

Unfortunately partner had Axxxx, AK, AKx, Jxx and went down in 1♠ with 6♥ cold, opps had 10/9 and 4th seat had too many spades to want to protect.

I don't know how that could ever happen, but I agree with the general direction of where you were heading.

[johnu]

GrahamJson, on 2017-March-31, 07:10, said:

One of the risks of opening 4H, and to a lesser extent 3H, is that partner could hold something like AKxx Q AK Axxxxx and will bid six trusting you for a suit headed by at least KJ.

I always leave my house with an open umbrella over my head in case something falls from the sky and the umbrella will save me. So far, this has worked well.

Of course, with your example hand, some people might check for keycards and avoid a slam, but I'm sure that would be overly cautious.

[johnu]

Surely the most descriptive bid for a hand with a 9 card suit is to start with pass. I'm sure you'll have plenty of time to show a hand with 9 hearts and no points later in the auction.

[GrahamJson]

johnu, on 2017-March-31, 11:02, said:

I always leave my house with an open umbrella over my head in case something falls from the sky and the umbrella will save me. So far, this has worked well.

Of course, with your example hand, some people might check for keycards and avoid a slam, but I'm sure that would be overly cautious.

Ok, I accept that mine was an extreme example but it was meant to illustrate a principle. If you open 4H partner will never imagine that you are lacking any honour. This could turn out badly in a number of ways, such as partner doubling oppo or competing too high.

[msjennifer]

Although no one bothers about at what level you open such a hand after two passes in the 3rd seat ,there have to be some limitations of the 4C(Tr to hearts) and 4D ( Tr to spades) and 4H/S openings in the first two seats.As we were taught 4C/D bids are directed to be 0,1 2 down contracts (with an A or K outside)as per the vulnerabilities,whereas 4H/S openings in those seats are directed to be 1,2,3 down contracts ( with no honors outside)as per vulnerabilities and it is not at all advisable to break these rules just to preempt opponents and misguide the partner about the values he expects from your hand.I feel strongly that the 4H bid is the best bid to break ones partnership.What will you open with x,AKxxxxxx,xx,xx ? Will you now say 1,2 or 3 H,since now you can not open 4H ,a bid which you reserved for the garbage hand given in the example ? Why quote Edgar Kaplan who died almost 20 years ago on 07/09/1997 ?

[PhilG007]

silvr bull, on 2017-March-30, 11:16, said:

This was not a goulash. Really! But BBO often recycles hands that look like they started in a goulash zoo.
This was MPs and both sides vul. What do you do with your 9 card H suit?

---

Horrid hand....even with the 9 carder. I pass quickly

[PhilG007]

silvr bull, on 2017-March-30, 11:16, said:

This was not a goulash. Really! But BBO often recycles hands that look like they started in a goulash zoo.
This was MPs and both sides vul. What do you do with your 9 card H suit?

---

[cherdano]

I can't believe anyone would pass this. If 4H breaks this partnership, then you should be glad to get out.
Oh. And if you were taught that 4H shows 8 tricks at equal vulnerability, then it's about time to drop out of the class and start forgetting what you were taught.


This hand makes 7 tricks in hearts, and 0 elsewhere. End of story.

[johnu]

GrahamJson, on 2017-March-31, 11:58, said:

Ok, I accept that mine was an extreme example but it was meant to illustrate a principle. If you open 4H partner will never imagine that you are lacking any honour. This could turn out badly in a number of ways, such as partner doubling oppo or competing too high.

Yes, some partners would play me for a heart trick and 1 or 2 tricks on the side after I open with a preempt. And a probable 7+ playing tricks is hugely overstating the playing strength since some partners would expect 9 or 10 tricks in hand to open 4♥. I guess I'm lucky I don't play with those partners.