[Liversidge]

Suppose the bidding goes 1D 2C 2D 2S 3H and opener is asking whether partner has a stop for 3NT. Is this FSF? I have read somewhere that it is only FSF if it is the 4th bid, so 3H is not alertable.

[RMB1]

 Liversidge, on 2017-July-10, 11:36, said:

Suppose the bidding goes 1D 2C 2D 2S 3H and opener is asking whether partner has a stop for 3NT. Is this FSF? I have read somewhere that it is only FSF if it is the 4th bid, so 3H is not alertable.

In England, any (artificial) fourth-suit bid is alertable. (Below 3NT)

The label "fourth suit forcing" is useful for partnership agreements; but for alerting and disclosure what is important is that a bid is forcing and artificial and what is asks/shows.

[lamford]

 RMB1, on 2017-July-10, 12:14, said:

In England, any (artificial) fourth-suit bid is alertable. (Below 3NT)

The label "fourth suit forcing" is useful for partnership agreements; but for alerting and disclosure what is important is that a bid is forcing and artificial and what is asks/shows.

Most play 2S is game-forcing there. If the opener had a heart stop, he would presumably bid 3NT. I expect in most partnerships, 3H is undiscussed and shows doubt about the final contract, maybe a 3-2-6-2 minimum, with Hx in hearts. It is clearly alertable, unless it promises a 3-card suit.

[Liversidge]

So if 3H is undscussed and responder does not know whether opener has Hx or xxx then he alerts?
This came up a week ago with a new partner. We had agreed to play FSF. Although I had only ever bid it as responder until then, I hoped partner would recognise it as asking for a stop. Partner was unsure what my 3H meant but had a good stop so bid 3NT which made. Afterwards as we moved table an opponent expressed mild surprise at my bid of 3H as my hearts were poor and she had good hearts. I later asked partner whether she should have alerted. Neither of us knew the answer.

[barmar]

 Liversidge, on 2017-July-10, 23:44, said:

So if 3H is undscussed and responder does not know whether opener has Hx or xxx then he alerts?

In EBU, if you're unsure of the meaning, but think it might be alertable, you're supposed to alert.

[Liversidge]

Thanks. That answers the question!

[helene_t]

You usually won't need this 3♥ bid, assuming that 2♠ is a game force: with a heart stopper you can bid notrumps, with a doubleton clubs you can show preference, with a 6-card suit you can bid diamonds again. The 3♥ bid eats a lot of bidding space and it is likely to confuse partner. So the only hand I could think of that really can't bid anything else is something like
♠Axx
♥xxxx
♦AKxxx
♣x

So that's how I would take the 3♥ bid if undiscussed. I would still alert it, though, because
1) Partner might intend it as artificial, so I must alert it, and
2) If I don't alert it I give partner the UI that I take it as natural.

Btw, even with the hand above I might raise spades instead, depending on partner's sense of humour.