[svengolly]

OK, you can disagree all you want with my 2♣ opener. Fine. No problem. I hate hands like these because if I open them 1♠, they often get passed out. If I open it 4♠, they get passed out. What seems to me like GIB insanity though, is when the bidding goes 2♣ (P) 2♥ (P) 2♠, how in the heck can computer OR human come up with a closeout 6NT bid? Diamonds could be wide open. I could have a heart fit. The worst possible bid is 6NT. (Well 7NT or 6♦ would be worse.) Is GIB so stupid it MUST see 20+ HCP? Even then 6NT may not be the right place.

Color me confused.

Hand

[LBengtsson]

6nt is bad. 2c is garbage. south hand no way 2c opener as you say

[smerriman]

svengolly, on 2018-January-04, 20:18, said:

I hate hands like these because if I open them 1♠, they often get passed out. If I open it 4♠, they get passed out.

Why is that a problem? Can you name a *single* example where your 1♠ bid would get passed out, but you can make game?

[steve2005]

That your 2♣ bid was horrid doesn't matter as far as Gib's 6N bid.. But you should expect to be in a hopeless slam when Gib has a hand even close to this.

The reason 6N is insane is there has to be a good chance that 7 of something makes and will be a guess after 6N. Opener also can easily have 5+♦ and you should be in 6/7♦.

On BBO i had the following auction with a self-proclaimed expert where I opened a normal 22 point 2♣:
2♣-2♦-2♠-6N
we missed our heart fit but 7N makes with no finesses and no need for a suit to break.
6N is just "insane"

I have to compliment Gib for leading 4th card of it's best suit. This is rare and the only lead to beat 6N!

If only you can get Gib to lead my suit against 3N when i have overcalled.

[jammen]

steve2005, on 2018-January-05, 08:27, said:

If only you can get Gib to lead my suit against 3N when i have overcalled.

GIB is programmed to not lead your risked-my-life-lead-directing-overcall suit especially when it can lead the jack from Jxx of an indifferent suit to hand them the contract.

[steve2005]

jammen, on 2018-January-05, 11:10, said:

GIB is programmed to not lead your risked-my-life-lead-directing-overcall suit especially when it can lead the jack from Jxx of an indifferent suit to hand them the contract.

Yes and that is "insane" but nobody at BBO will admit it.

[jdonn]

GIB should definitely bid more slowly. That said, if you had to guess the final contract for your life at that point with his hand, it would be 6NT. So it's a fine guess, just a situation where it's premature for him to be guessing.

[steve2005]

jdonn, on 2018-January-05, 15:25, said:

GIB should definitely bid more slowly. That said, if you had to guess the final contract for your life at that point with his hand, it would be 6NT.

Premature is an understatement.
It isn't Gib job to make a decision if it was programmed properly.
The 2♣ opener is the one who should be making the decision unless stuck at some point.
Almost all bids are forcing so guessing at this point isn't bridge it's euchre.

[johnu]

steve2005, on 2018-January-05, 16:51, said:

Premature is an understatement.
It isn't Gib job to make a decision if it was programmed properly.
The 2♣ opener is the one who should be making the decision unless stuck at some point.
Almost all bids are forcing so guessing at this point isn't bridge it's euchre.

I commend GIB for not passing 2♠ when it didn't know what to do since that's what happens in a number of other situations.

[iandayre]

True, 6NT isn't a great bid. It's ten times better than your 2C though. Make one of your small Spades the K, giving you an actual (though still light) 2C bid, and 6NT is cold without a D lead and has great chances with one.

[virgosrock]

svengolly, on 2018-January-04, 20:18, said:

OK, you can disagree all you want with my 2♣ opener. Fine. No problem. I hate hands like these because if I open them 1♠, they often get passed out. If I open it 4♠, they get passed out. What seems to me like GIB insanity though, is when the bidding goes 2♣ (P) 2♥ (P) 2♠, how in the heck can computer OR human come up with a closeout 6NT bid? Diamonds could be wide open. I could have a heart fit. The worst possible bid is 6NT. (Well 7NT or 6♦ would be worse.) Is GIB so stupid it MUST see 20+ HCP? Even then 6NT may not be the right place.

Color me confused.

Hand

2C sucks if worried about 1s-p-p-p open 4S what the heck. w/o running simulations i think 1s-all pass will be a low percentage.

vrock

[helene_t]

I think there are two issues here.

One is that 3♣ at North's second turn would be "cheapest minor" and hence show a weak hand. 4♣ would maybe be a splinter? The problem may be that North has no way of showing clubs here.

Another issue is that GIB often just blasts slam very early after a 2♣ opening. I am not sure why. Maybe there are just no bids (other than 3♣) which are defined at all so it always defaults to guessing the final contract.

That said, there's no way you can avoid slam when you open such a hand 2♣. I don't think it can ever win. If partner has nothing, you will be playing a hopeless 4♠. If partner has something, you will be playing a hopeless slam.

You can agree with a human partner to open such hands 2♣, but playing with GIB you have to play the GIB system.

[svengolly]

Was out of town and just got back to this thread. (Yeah, I expected a few "2C bid sucked" replies.)

Anyway, I had sent Georgi an IM about this and his reply was "Agree. GIB should bid more slowly. We will work to fix this."

[svengolly]

helene_t, on 2018-January-14, 21:38, said:

One is that 3♣ at North's second turn would be "cheapest minor" and hence show a weak hand. 4♣ would maybe be a splinter? The problem may be that North has no way of showing clubs here.

2H is a positive response by GIB with 5+ hearts. 3C would not be a 2nd negative after 2H. It would be a 2nd suit in any system and probably denies support for S.

[helene_t]

svengolly, on 2018-January-15, 23:46, said:

2H is a positive response by GIB with 5+ hearts. 3C would not be a 2nd negative after 2H. It would be a 2nd suit in any system and probably denies support for S.

Oh yes of course, you are right.