[JoAnneM]

Today in my club game I was dealt a great hand, AKQxxxx - AQJ10 Ax. I was 2nd seat and was all set to open 2C with my two loser hand when 1st seat opened 2C! I had to assume long hearts, we were red vs white, and I had a weakish bidding partner so I just bid 6S. 7H was bid which we doubled and set for 1100, sadly. We can make 7S. My partner had my missing kings. Now my question is, South opened 2C with 9 hearts and a 4 loser hand - What is ACBL’s current position on this bidding style? I am not expressing sour grapes, I am the club director, and we were all discussing it later and I said I would bring it up to this forum, and also ask if I should have bid 7S.

Thanks, Jo Anne

[croquetfan]

As a director I would have no problem with the 2C bid, whether it's defined as game force or a 9 playing trick hand. Just your bad luck that opener found that bid: you really can't be expected to have a system for a "once in a blue moon" hand like that.

[gordontd]

I think you have done fine and probably wouldn't have done any better if they had opened a more normal 4H bid.

My understanding is that the ACBL says that a strong hand is whatever the player considers strong.

It probably wouldn't be considered strong in the EBU and this sort of thing is the reason behind regulating these calls in that way. Actually, what is harder to diagnose is when you and your partner have your strength more evenly balanced between you.

[Tramticket]

Our general principal after a 2♣ opening is that any bid by us is weak and aiming to disrupt their auction.

In the extremely rare occasions where we hold a strong hand after a 2♣ opening we pass initially and bid at our second turn if appropriate (you will always get a second turn since the 2♣ bid is forcing). On this hand I would pass first and then bid 6♠. Partner should then understand that you are bidding 6♠, based on strength and hoping to make rather than sacrificing in 6♠. This invites partner to look at his hand and he might find the 7♠ raise.

[FelicityR]

There are plenty of less-experienced players still around who would open 2♣ with a single-suited 9 trick hand, ACBL/EBU rules and regulations aside. Penalising someone for what they believe is the right bid in their eyes takes the enjoyment out of the game. The bid was made honestly, and you are to be congratulated for posting this without rancour. I am sure there would be many players who would have asked the tournament director to throw the rule book at the 'offending' player.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

you took the strength of your partner into account when you bid 6S,
a value bid, but a guess, but a reasonable guess, you need very little from p.
Bidding 7S, is guessing a 2nd time, you have no add. information, if 6S
was on, you know about the opener, he has lots of hearts, but you dont have
any inforation about the hands of your partner / of the 2nd oppoenent.
Take the money.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[msjennifer]

It’s just bad luck.Of course,you should have asked for their convention card and looked at the explanation of a 2C opening bid.If the card said anything not justifying the 2C bid then you could have called the director and pointed it out to him.

[Left2Right]

Hiya JoAnne:

ACBL guides directors on what constitutes the psych of a 2♣ opener, which is forbidden. Since you didn't post the opponent's hand, you'll need to review this yourself via the ACBL document at this URL.

Barring the psych, this result is just the breaks and tests our skills.

And yes, I have yet another BBO constraint file that may help you and your "weakish" partners get stronger on exactly this topic.
See Two Club Opener Derailed

Cheers.

[JoAnneM]

Thanks for the responses. Left2Right, I did state in my post that the hand was nine hearts and four losers, but I didn't write down the exact cards. South, the 2C bidder, is an enthusiastic Flight C player who is being mentored by North, a strong Flight A player, this is the reason for the discussion. We are very much a mentoring club and when you all mention calling the director, I am the director. So, as one of you mentioned, no rancour, just learning, and I thought I remembered reading something about long suit 2C openings being not allowed anymore. This C player is starting to attend tournaments and I don't want him to get in trouble. I will tell him to forge ahead with it as long as he considers the bid game force.

[pescetom]

 Left2Right, on 2018-April-20, 10:07, said:

ACBL guides directors on what constitutes the psych of a 2♣ opener, which is forbidden. Since you didn't post the opponent's hand, you'll need to review this yourself via the ACBL document at this URL.

That is (was?) a very sensible document, but my understanding is that the current ACBL doctrine is embodied by the Convention Chart, which at "Basic" level (sounds appropriate here) allows only a "Very Strong" hand to open 2♣.

“Very Strong”: A hand that contains:
i. at least 20 HCP; or
ii. at least 14 HCP and is within one trick of game assuming suits break
evenly among the other hands.
iii. at least 5 Control Points and is within one trick of game assuming suits
break evenly among the other hands.
“Control Points”: An alternate evaluation method where an Ace=2 and a King=1

I don't see the hand described meeting these requirements.

[miamijd]

Even the ACBL General Convention Chart (the lowest of the three charts) permits a 2C bid for any "strong" hand. AKQ ninth of hearts is a trick away from game, so that ought to qualify. It wouldn't be my style to open 2C with that hand (I think it's unsound), but that doesn't mean it's prohibited. And per the ACBL Alert procedures, it's not alertable, either. Obviously, the Mid-Chart and the SuperChart permit the bid, too.

You just got unlucky on this one.

Cheers,
Mike

[johnu]

 pescetom, on 2018-April-20, 12:24, said:

That is (was?) a very sensible document, but my understanding is that the current ACBL doctrine is embodied by the Convention Chart, which at "Basic" level (sounds appropriate here) allows only a "Very Strong" hand to open 2♣.

You are looking at the new convention charts which are effective starting with the Hawaii NABC championships this November. The old charts are still in effect.

[johnu]

 gordontd, on 2018-April-20, 00:33, said:

My understanding is that the ACBL says that a strong hand is whatever the player considers strong.

One of the more ridiculous ACBL convention chart rules IMO. Putting in a rule and then letting individual players decide the limits seems nuts to me. Everybody should be playing by the same rules.

The new convention charts have a bright line test on what's allowable.

[miamijd]

 pescetom, on 2018-April-20, 12:24, said:

That is (was?) a very sensible document, but my understanding is that the current ACBL doctrine is embodied by the Convention Chart, which at "Basic" level (sounds appropriate here) allows only a "Very Strong" hand to open 2♣.

“Very Strong”: A hand that contains:
i. at least 20 HCP; or
ii. at least 14 HCP and is within one trick of game assuming suits break
evenly among the other hands.
iii. at least 5 Control Points and is within one trick of game assuming suits
break evenly among the other hands.
“Control Points”: An alternate evaluation method where an Ace=2 and a King=1

I don't see the hand described meeting these requirements.

You are citing the new charts, which aren't in effect yet.

But even there, the Basic chart isn't going to be used except in novice/intermediate limited games. Since the player in question was playing with a very advanced partner, they probably play Open events where the Open chart is going to be used. The Open Chart allows this sort of 2c bird


Cheers
Mike

[msjennifer]

If as someone said in a lighter vein that a bid of 4NT should be Blackwood for Aces then,I Ialso in the lighter vein suggest that a direct bid of 5NT be Exclusion Blackwood for Kings and if the LHO bids 6H then DOPI be employed.

[pescetom]

 miamijd, on 2018-April-20, 20:42, said:

You are citing the. Ew charts, which aren't in effect yet.

Correct, only later this year. But obviously it is what ACBL now thinks and intends to implement.

 miamijd, on 2018-April-20, 20:42, said:

But even there, the Basic chart isn't going to be used except in novice/intermediate limited games. Since the player in question was playing with a very advanced partner, they probably play Open events where the Open chart is going to be used.

The poster says the player in question is a novice to tournaments and that the club is focussed on mentoring. If the Open chart is going to be used in a mentoring environment then it's hard to see why they bothered with a Basic chart at all. But you know ACBL world better than I do.

[pigpenz]

northern California has this breed of players that learned to open 2♣with 4 loser hand, but a lot the hands there that people open
2♣dont even begin to have a play for 9 tricks when they do it on two suiters. so for most of the people defending it, the best is to bid
and a great majority of the times the hand belongs to the non opening 2♣side. A great majority of people in the norcal area play this way
and have been doing this for 40 yrs, so I am suprised the Joan hasn't run into this before in the Chico Redding area.

[Joe_Old]

You might add to your agreements that double means that you have a 2♣ opener (stolen bid), as opposed to an overcall of 3♣, which would be natural. I see more 2♣ bids on shapely 17 or 18 HCP hands than I would personally endorse, so the treatment has paid off.

You need to decide how many HCP you're promising, and especially agree on meanings for follow up bids, since the double is unlikely to be pure penalty.

[pigpenz]

 Joe_Old, on 2018-April-21, 13:40, said:

You might add to your agreements that double means that you have a 2♣ opener (stolen bid), as opposed to an overcall of 3♣, which would be natural. I see more 2♣ bids on shapely 17 or 18 HCP hands than I would personally endorse, so the treatment has paid off.

You need to decide how many HCP you're promising, and especially agree on meanings for follow up bids, since the double is unlikely to be pure penalty.

it is interesting that people have all of these gadgets for competing against 1NT a lot of club players have nothing against a strong 2♣

[miamijd]

As to how to handle this hand, a good convention to use over 2C is CRASH. It stands for Color, Rank, and SHape. X of 2C shows 2 suits of the same color. 2D shows two suits of the same rank. 2NT shows two suits of the same shape. This handles your two-suiters.

Why am I raising this here where you have a one-suiter? Well, if I held your hand, I think I would pass 2C. You know what's going to happen. Responder is going to bid 2D, and then opener will bid 2H. Now I would come out of the bushes and bid 3H showing a very, very strong one-suiter -- so strong that you think it's OUR hand, not the opponents'. Remember, the two-suiters were shown with CRASH.

Partner is going to be able to work out what your suit is pretty easily, and now you'll have a fighting chance to stop at 5 if he has neither minor King (you won't have the entries to hook the diamond); bid 6 if he has one minor King (even with the club King, you won't have enough entries), and bid 7 if he can show second-round control of both minors.

But for gosh sakes, don't bid this way with GIB!!

Cheers,
mike