[sakuragi]

http://www.bridgeweb...wd=1&club=hkcba
click scorecards board 30

after "lose big" hand in same set....

you (and the poster) are West

bidding

1s...p...6s...all pass

Play

South lead CK
South continue CA
curtains ... 6s=

[eagles123]

regardless of whether it worked it's a really poor bid. u could be getting to a slam off a cashing AK, u could be missing a grand, etc etc. launching 6 is just bizarre, it's just taking a wild guess when u can quite easily have a sensible conversation to find the best spot

[The_Badger]

The bidding is like something out of a kung-fu movie...for bridge players

[gszes]

I guess we pay our entry fee we can do what we wish with it BUT it seems plausible to arrive in 6s via "normal" bidding:)

[MRTRUB44]

While I would not bid that myself, I would not be upset with a partner who bid that way because
1) Going straight to the final contract denies information
2) The hand is a bit stronger than what is needed for game opposite a 1 Spade open
3) The final contract is obviously going to be in spades
4) Distributional hands often do better than expected
5) There is no convenient way to find out about duplicate values while forcing to game.

[nekthen]

I am not sure that "normal" bidding gets to 6
See other results
1S 4H
4S 4N (exclusion rkcb showing h void)
5D 5S (cant go on with those clubs)
6S (I have a stiff club that must be worth something on the auction)

Not sure this would happen at the table but seems plausible

BTW while the actual defence is helpful, 6 makes on any lead

[pescetom]

nekthen, on 2018-September-11, 03:38, said:

I am not sure that "normal" bidding gets to 6
See other results
1S 4H
4S 4N (exclusion rkcb showing h void)
5D 5S (cant go on with those clubs)
6S (I have a stiff club that must be worth something on the auction)

Not sure this would happen at the table but seems plausible

If 4H is a normal splinter (singleton/void, denies Ace) then why does 4N show h void?

At our table it might go quite similarly:
1S 3NT (fit and a void)
4C 4H (void ask, hearts)
4NT 5H (exclusion rkcb, 2 kc)
6S (only missing 1 kc and I have stiff club etc)

If not it would go:
1S 2D
2H 3S
4C 4D
etc etc
and lead to 6S all the same.

[rmnka447]

One of my partners might well bid the hand the way it was bid. But he's a wild bidder and subject to be as likely down 3 or 4 as make.

It is not how I would like to see it bid. I'd probably use Jacoby 2 NT as Kxxxx doesn't seem like particularly good holding to be a source of tricks. But as was pointed out, a 2/1 would also work here. Both should be much preferred to the actual auction.

[Cyberyeti]

eagles123, on 2018-September-10, 07:38, said:

regardless of whether it worked it's a really poor bid. u could be getting to a slam off a cashing AK, u could be missing a grand, etc etc. launching 6 is just bizarre, it's just taking a wild guess when u can quite easily have a sensible conversation to find the best spot

Note it follows a disaster so depending on the scoring, you might want to roll the dice.

It meets some of the requirements for 6♠ in that it's just possible the wrong lead may let it through if you give no clues.

If my diamond suit was a tad better, I'd feel more comfortable with it, as it is, not sure it's a great slam, diamonds 4-2 is potentially enough to beat it by leading trumps for example.

A sensible conversation may tell the opps you have 2 or 3 club losers and a heart void so you won't get A♥ lead.

That said we'd be in 4♠ I think unless I really wanted to generate (1♠-4♥(optional voidwood)-4♠(in the light of your heart void, I don't have an opening bid)-P)

[miamijd]

You get to 6S pretty easily without the insane immediate 6S call. The thing to note is that the West hand is much too strong for a splinter. Either:

1S 2D
2H 3S
4C(1) 5H(2)
5NT(3) 6S

(1) Playing "serious" 3NT, your hand is good (6 losers) but not super-duper, so you bid 4C to show first or second round control.
(3) 1/4

OR if you play non-serious 3NT:

1S 2D
2H 3S
3NT(1) 4D(2)
4H (3) 5H(4)
5NT (5) 6S

(1) Playing non-serious 3NT, you are good enough to cooperate if partner wants to investigate slam, but not good enough to have serious slam interest, so you bid 3NT.
(2) 1/2 round control of diamonds, but NOT 1/2 round control of clubs: slam interest
(3) Last Train: Shows 1/2 round club control (otherwise you would bid 4S), but shows a hand that can't force to slam at this point
(4) Exclusion key card
(5) 1/4

Not hard. If you don't play some form of serious/non-serious 3NT and Last Train, you should add them to your arsenal.

Cheers,
Mike

[marklaf]

I am reasonably sure pairs like that do not win events---6 spades is absolutely nuts---

[sfi]

pescetom, on 2018-September-11, 09:06, said:

If 4H is a normal splinter (singleton/void, denies Ace) then why does 4N show h void?

The idea is that if all you wanted to know about is keycards, you could have asked over 1S. Since you have gained no useful information after a signoff, you must have something "interesting" to bid this way - which can only mean a heart void.

Of course, if 1S - 4NT is not keycard, then this logic doesn't work.

[msjennifer]

Certainly not many will bid this way when various conventions and gadgets are available ( includes natural bidding also ) Yes ,if we are doing badly the rest of the way.then
" may be perhaps possibly ".But then, as you have rightly asked, who could argue with success !

[miamijd]

sfi, on 2018-September-11, 22:49, said:

The idea is that if all you wanted to know about is keycards, you could have asked over 1S. Since you have gained no useful information after a signoff, you must have something "interesting" to bid this way - which can only mean a heart void.

Of course, if 1S - 4NT is not keycard, then this logic doesn't work.

1S 4NT

should NOT be keycard. It should be regular, old-fashioned BW. A hand like:

x AKQJxxx AQx x

All you need to know is how many Aces (and if 2, then also how many Kings) your partner has. No point bidding 2H and trying to get your partner to agree hearts so that you can key-card.

If you have a hand that wants to key-card in spades, you can always set trump with whatever your 4-card forcing raise is and then key-card later on.

Cheers,
Mike

[Cyberyeti]

miamijd, on 2018-September-12, 23:00, said:

1S 4NT

should NOT be keycard. It should be regular, old-fashioned BW. A hand like:

x AKQJxxx AQx x

All you need to know is how many Aces (and if 2, then also how many Kings) your partner has. No point bidding 2H and trying to get your partner to agree hearts so that you can key-card.

If you have a hand that wants to key-card in spades, you can always set trump with whatever your 4-card forcing raise is and then key-card later on.

Cheers,
Mike

Well if you play SJS you start with 3♥ and follow with 4N keycard in hearts

[pescetom]

miamijd, on 2018-September-12, 23:00, said:

1S 4NT

should NOT be keycard. It should be regular, old-fashioned BW.

I agree that it should not be keycard, but it seems more logical and versatile that it should be quantitative.
If I want to ask keycards I can show fit and then bid 4NT, if I want to ask aces I can show misfit and then bid 4NT.
Obviously this approach requires a system which offers adequate forcing and economical bidding sequences.

[mikeh]

pescetom, on 2018-September-13, 12:21, said:

I agree that it should not be keycard, but it seems more logical and versatile that it should be quantitative.
If I want to ask keycards I can show fit and then bid 4NT, if I want to ask aces I can show misfit and then bid 4NT.
Obviously this approach requires a system which offers adequate forcing and economical bidding sequences.

I think you'd find that most experts would see 4N as quantitative if one first forced, found no fit, and then bid 4N. I think it probably very close to universal in NA, absent any specialized agreements pairs might have, to treat 1M 4N as simple Blackwood.

[sfi]

miamijd, on 2018-September-12, 23:00, said:

1S 4NT

should NOT be keycard. It should be regular, old-fashioned BW.

That may be, but it is frequently keycard anyway (more so outside the ACBL in my experience). Whether or not it applies for you here, there are many similar auctions where the general principle is valid and the person making a splinter gets to ask for keycards ignoring the splinter suit.

[sfi]

pescetom, on 2018-September-13, 12:21, said:

I agree that it should not be keycard, but it seems more logical and versatile that it should be quantitative.
If I want to ask keycards I can show fit and then bid 4NT, if I want to ask aces I can show misfit and then bid 4NT.
Obviously this approach requires a system which offers adequate forcing and economical bidding sequences.

This sounds really poor. Responder takes up three levels of bidding to show a point range raise, but opener can have all sorts of unbalanced hands that make simple point count completely uninteresting. For instance, I had this hand in practice last night:

AQT9xxx
-
x
AQT9x

How helpful would a 4NT response be to your 1S opening?