[gordontd]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-September-23, 13:23, said:

Partner's hand was A10xx, Qxxx, xx, Kxx, even upgrading to 22-23 we didn't bid slam, but gained an IMP by making 13. I'm glad most people did what I did, it's not clear we bid a slam after a 1♣ opener either.

The real problem with opening 1C is that it's not clear what to do on the next round. Reverse into 2D?

[Cyberyeti]

 gordontd, on 2018-September-25, 05:00, said:

The real problem with opening 1C is that it's not clear what to do on the next round. Reverse into 2D?

We have a GF unbal 2N rebid available (weak NT, wide range 1N rebid with no gap to 2N opener so not needed as balanced)

[Tramticket]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-September-25, 05:35, said:

We have a GF unbal 2N rebid available (weak NT, wide range 1N rebid with no gap to 2N opener so not needed as balanced)

But will it help you?

I haven't come across this particular method so have various questions:
- What are the continuations over the 2NT (unbalanced GF)?
- What is the HCP expection for the 2NT bid? Will partner ever believe that you are this strong?
- Will partner give support 3♣ over 2NT? Or is partner more likely raise to 3NT?
- Even if partner chooses to show some support with 3♣, you are still left with a dilemma. Do you show you NT suitability with 3NT (or 4NT if natural)?

[As an aside, we also play a wide range 1NT rebid, but for us 1x,1y; 2NT is 19-20 and our 2NT opening shows the minors].

[Cyberyeti]

 Tramticket, on 2018-September-25, 05:53, said:

But will it help you?

I haven't come across this particular method so have various questions:
- What are the continuations over the 2NT (unbalanced GF)?
- What is the HCP expection for the 2NT bid? Will partner ever believe that you are this strong?
- Will partner give support 3♣ over 2NT? Or is partner more likely raise to 3NT?
- Even if partner chooses to show some support with 3♣, you are still left with a dilemma. Do you show you NT suitability with 3NT (or 4NT if natural)?

[As an aside, we also play a wide range 1NT rebid, but for us 1x,1y; 2NT is 19-20 and our 2NT opening shows the minors].

In this case it won't help very much which is why I didn't choose to go that route, partner will expect this sort of playing strength as maximum, we lose a bit off the maximum for a 3♣ rebid, which is where it really gains on the death hand. Also it's better on the hands that are not single suited, you have 1♣-1♥-2♦ limited by the fact that you haven't gone thru 2N-3♣(semi forced)-3♦.

It also allows us to use a jump change of suit rebid to show a particular hand type (2 good 5+ card suits, not a particularly good hand) where partner knows side aces and honours in partner's suit are gold, the bid is not even forcing.

[rmnka447]

I missed this entire thread for a day or two, but I'd also bid 2 ♣ followed by 2 NT.

The fairly good, long ♣ suit raises this hand beyond a 21 point balanced hand.

I'm also applying a bidding principle that top Chicago player Dick Bruno has stated several times in lectures on bidding problem hands. He calls it the "one card off" principle. In this hand, if a ♣ were instead a card in another suit, you'd have no problem opening this hand with a NT bid. So bidding NT with this hand means you're no more than one card off in telling partner what you have.

Also, with the points and stoppers spread across all suits, this feel more like a NT hand. If the values were concentrated in two suits, than that might be a reason to favor ♣ versus NT -- perhaps something like ♠ AKQ ♥ xx ♦ Kx ♣ AKQJxx.

[rhm]

 rmnka447, on 2018-September-25, 13:20, said:

Also, with the points and stoppers spread across all suits, this feel more like a NT hand. If the values were concentrated in two suits, than that might be a reason to favor ♣ versus NT -- perhaps something like ♠ AKQ ♥ xx ♦ Kx ♣ AKQJxx.

I do not get this.
With the actual hand you require essentially the club king and an ace for slam.
If you take the 2♣-2N route you risk that partner bids slam with a balanced hand missing an ace and the club honors.
That would still give him up to 11 HCP. I can not blame him.
Only if you bid clubs can partner appreciate his values properly. In my opinion there is no rush to bid notrumps on the actual hand.
With ♠ AKQ ♥ xx ♦ Kx ♣ AKQJxx partner can be short in clubs and it will not materially affect your slam chances.
I might still bid clubs with the latter hand, but only because I do not know whether notrump is a good idea due to my heart holding.

Rainer Herrmann

[msjennifer]

 gordontd, on 2018-September-25, 05:00, said:

The real problem with opening 1C is that it's not clear what to do on the next round. Reverse into 2D?

Sir,this problem is faced in all systems in which there is a prepared opening bid'.This applies to all natural systems where 1C which can be 2+ cards in clubs.The same problem is faced when using strong club system whether Blue Club,Roman Club,Leghorn Diamond,various so called Precision systems, where 1D is a prepared bid.Any system (leave alone the conventions and gadgets) which can correctly bid 85% or more of all hands is, in my personal opinion,,an excellent system.Therein lies the charm and excitement in Bridge.One has to describe ones hand as correctly as possible and not deviate in the slightest from the principles of whichever system one is playing.It is futile to think that "if partner holds this and that then one will miss a game or slam".The partner is there very much alive to convey his hand.Hence one must not IMAGINE things irrationally.The less imagined the better.

[msjennifer]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-September-24, 05:36, said:

I just posed the question because I also play old style precision and I don't think it's easy there unlike what was suggested.

1♣-1N denies 5M but not 4M and 2♣ is staymanic over this not showing clubs. We play it split range 8-10 or 13+.

I was never clear what the difference was between 1♣-1N-3♣ and 1♣-1N-2♣-2any-3♣, but you have the same choice to make of bidding your clubs or just quantitively raising to 4N.

Sir,the way is there.1C-1NT-2NT shows the Club suit and it is not an "invitational" bid. 1C-1NT-2C is staymanish and responder bids 2D with 4 Hearts,bids 2H with 4 carder spades and both show 8-10 HCP.2NT reply shows no 4 card major or a five card minor and 8-10 HCP.A 3C reply shows 4 card club suit and another 4 card suit with 11-13 HCP,3D REPLY shows D AND H,3H shows H AND S,3S reply showsS AND D and 11-13 ,and a reply of 3NT shows a 5carder club suit and 11-13 HCP with any 3325 pattern.After an 8-10 hand is shown openers 3C is a relay and responder shows an outside 4 card suit by bidding it and else bids 3NT.SIR,there is more to all this if one wishes to know .Personally I do not like Meckstroths Precision using GOKHALE transfers as it is far too complicated.

[Cyberyeti]

 msjennifer, on 2018-September-25, 22:39, said:

Sir,the way is there.1C-1NT-2NT shows the Club suit and it is not an "invitational" bid. 1C-1NT-2C is staymanish and responder bids 2D with 4 Hearts,bids 2H with 4 carder spades and both show 8-10 HCP.2NT reply shows no 4 card major or a five card minor and 8-10 HCP.A 3C reply shows 4 card club suit and another 4 card suit with 11-13 HCP,3D REPLY shows D AND H,3H shows H AND S,3S reply showsS AND D and 11-13 ,and a reply of 3NT shows a 5carder club suit and 11-13 HCP with any 3325 pattern.After an 8-10 hand is shown openers 3C is a relay and responder shows an outside 4 card suit by bidding it and else bids 3NT.SIR,there is more to all this if one wishes to know .Personally I do not like Meckstroths Precision using GOKHALE transfers as it is far too complicated.

I play a very slightly modified version (12-15 NT 4 card diamond) of Reese's Precision from the 70s once a year, so no complicated stuff at all.

[gordontd]

 msjennifer, on 2018-September-25, 22:01, said:

Sir,this problem is faced in all systems in which there is a prepared opening bid'.This applies to all natural systems where 1C which can be 2+ cards in clubs.The same problem is faced when using strong club system whether Blue Club,Roman Club,Leghorn Diamond,various so called Precision systems, where 1D is a prepared bid.Any system (leave alone the conventions and gadgets) which can correctly bid 85% or more of all hands is, in my personal opinion,,an excellent system.Therein lies the charm and excitement in Bridge.One has to describe ones hand as correctly as possible and not deviate in the slightest from the principles of whichever system one is playing.It is futile to think that "if partner holds this and that then one will miss a game or slam".The partner is there very much alive to convey his hand.Hence one must not IMAGINE things irrationally.The less imagined the better.

I think you've missed the point and failed to answer the question.