[nekthen]

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Your bid

1♣ shows 2+ cards
1♠ shows 5+ cards

If you are bidding 3♠ what needs to change to make double your choice?
If you are doubling what needs to change to make 3♠ right for you?

[Cyberyeti]

1♠ shows 5 - then depends what your agreement is about X, if it shows shape and not necessarily values as it does for us, then X, otherwise 3♠.

[apollo1201]

If 1S promised just 4, I would be too weak to X. Barely enough to X over 2H.

Now I know partner has 5, given she’ll know I can stretch around 1 level, 3S shows a non-min 2S. I’d prefer to have 4 cds and a little more HCP (14), but 3 and the sg will make it. One has to do with their cards.

[Vampyr]

I am going to double and be prepared to lose the post-mortem.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#2 no, it is either neg. or inv. strength with a spade fit.
#1 I am going with 3S

With kind regards
Marlowe

[FelicityR]

I bid 3♠ here. The hand feels distributional as the opponents at adverse vulnerability have supported to 3♥. Double might be the right bid, but if West now bids 4♥ both your partner and yourself are going to be in a fix. Admittedly, 3♠ feels a very slight overbid but you're at the right vulnerability. Pass doesn't even enter into the equation here, in my opinion.

[pescetom]

For us the double is negative and not appropriate here.
I would stretch to 3♠ in this situation in any case.

[DavidKok]

A penalty double? In a contested auction? After opponents found their fit?

We play double as an invitation for 4♠ here, and 3♠ as 'to play'. At this vulnerability the latter can be made on amazing junk hands, so I'd stretch to a double here.

That being said, without this agreement this would be a comfortable 3♠ bid, which I suppose is ambiguous.

[johnu]

I think 3♠ is automatic here. There is no guarantee that 3♠ will be the best bid on this particular hand, but the alternatives are worse. You would have more of a problem if 1♠ only showed 4 spades.

[akwoo]

Playing weak NTs, this hand is almost minimum for a 3♠ bid.

Playing strong NTs, partner has to consider that one of my little diamonds could be a little heart instead (or, even worse, one each of my clubs and diamonds could be little hearts), so I'm worried 3♠ will miss game. At IMPs, I would consider passing and hoping partner can reopen (over which I bid 4♠).

Frankly, this hand is an ethics nightmare. A lot of Souths are going to bid 3♠ with an subconscious hitch and Norths will subconsciously take the hitch into account when deciding whether to bid 4♠ or not. It's not even possible for directors to rule on longer hesitations, because there's really no way to distinguish between deciding on P/3S or deciding on 3S/4S, but a lot of partnerships will (subconsciously!!!!) know what a 20 second hesitation means vs. a 40 second hesitation.

[Vampyr]

pescetom, on 2020-June-14, 13:39, said:

For us the double is negative and not appropriate here.
I would stretch to 3♠ in this situation in any case.

I am not sure that using the double here as takeout is particularly useful. For 30 or more years this double has been used as a game try.

[helene_t]

Dbl is take-out, of course. What else am I supposed to bid with Kx-xx-AKx-AKJxxx ?

3♠ is about right if we play weak NT, in which case I am now showing either 15-16 points balanced with 3-card support, or fewer points with compensating shape. In a strong-NT system it's maybe less obvious if 3♠ does full justice to this hand, but I think it's ok. With a soft balanced hand with 3-card support I would just pass. 3♠ isn't always lawful with 3-card support anyway.

[nige1]

Nethken asks "1♣ shows 2+ cards. 1♠ shows 5+ cards.If you are bidding 3♠ what needs to change to make double your choice?If you are doubling what needs to change to make 3♠ right for you?"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I rank ...
1. 3♠ = NAT. Nat. Slight underbid.
2. 4♠ = NAT. Reasonable punt.
3. 4♥ = CUE. Overbid
4. Pass = NAT. Pusillanimous
5. Double = Non-descriptive if PEN.

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[johnu]

DavidKok, on 2020-June-14, 15:01, said:

We play double as an invitation for 4♠ here, and 3♠ as 'to play'.

Vampyr, on 2020-June-14, 20:22, said:

I am not sure that using the double here as takeout is particularly useful. For 30 or more years this double has been used as a game try.

Most people play "Maximal" doubles only when a trump suit has been established.

[Tramticket]

A low-level double is not penalties when they have agreed a suit.

So what is a double? I don't have any agreement that it shows trump support - maybe that would be useful, but we have only agreed that a game try applies after suit agreement. We play a weak NT and I would expect south to double with (say) A10 97 AK82 KQ732 to show values.

How strong is our actual hand? Again, playing a weak NT, we would open 1NT with A107 932 A98 KJ72, so for us the OP hand is close to a minimum. I think that I have an easy 3♠ bid.

[bluenikki]

DavidKok, on 2020-June-14, 15:01, said:

A penalty double? In a contested auction? After opponents found their fit?

We play double as an invitation for 4♠ here, and 3♠ as 'to play'. At this vulnerability the latter can be made on amazing junk hands, so I'd stretch to a double here.

That being said, without this agreement this would be a comfortable 3♠ bid, which I suppose is ambiguous.

We were given only the options of takeout and penalty, with no way to vote for optional or penalty-oriented.

What do you do if your majors are reversed and you have 2 more hcp in minors? In that case, you would *not* want a spade rebid without semi-solidity and *not* want a 3-card 4♦.

[msjennifer]

Sir,
Our bid is based upon the LTC when we find a eight card fit and with the short hand getting tapped in the 3 card support.,
Our bid here is Double indicating a hand with 3 card support ,7 losers and which would have responded 2S had RHO passed or bid 2H.Responder who also plays LTC gets the full information to decide his line of action thereafter.

[DavidKok]

bluenikki, on 2020-June-15, 07:24, said:

We were given only the options of takeout and penalty, with no way to vote for optional or penalty-oriented.

What do you do if your majors are reversed and you have 2 more hcp in minors? In that case, you would *not* want a spade rebid without semi-solidity and *not* want a 3-card 4♦.

I'm sorry, I must have missed this. I thought the poll asked if double would be penalty or not, without committing to any particular type of 'non-penalty' doubles. With ♥ATx I would brave 3NT, counting on the extra minor suit points to bring the contract home.

[balasu]

My first reaction is that the opponents have a fit and 4 spades may be a stretch for us. A pass would let the opponents to win a
partial score cheaply. The hand may be worth a double at 4 hearts perhaps for penalty, even though that may be bad. So as a compromise, i will make a 3 spades bid.

[bluenikki]

DavidKok, on 2020-June-15, 09:45, said:

I'm sorry, I must have missed this. I thought the poll asked if double would be penalty or not, without committing to any particular type of 'non-penalty' doubles. With ♥ATx I would brave 3NT, counting on the extra minor suit points to bring the contract home.

Notice you do not recognized any subdivision of "penalty" double.

The main message of a penalty-oriented double is misfit for partner's suit and this may be the last chance for a plus.