[phoenixmj]

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I opened the bidding 1H and partner responded 2NT. My 3c rebid shows shortness in clubs. Partner's 3 spade rebid shows 1st round control in spades. My 3NT bid shows slam interest and asks for controls. My partner knows that I have either a singleton or void in clubs - so does partner show 1st or 2nd round control in diamonds or does he show clubs?

Thanks in advance for any and all help. Also, if you have comments on the start of the bidding, please share.

[FelicityR]

The Jacoby 2NT response is a great convention until you have a hand like this. A 6♥ contract should be there on a dummy reversal if required. The problem I have found with the Jacoby 2NT is that it does take away bidding space; the responses don't necessarily fit comfortably; and, sometimes opener and responder find themselves at odds with each other who's in control of the auction.

It easy to say looking at the two hands but responder with the ace controls and the singleton ♦ should be in control of the auction here. Perhaps a 2♣ response then agreeing ♥s later is actually better than 2NT. But only the luxury of seeing both hands makes this suggestion viable. Most players (including myself, I'll be honest) would bid 2NT without batting an eyelid.

[hrothgar]

OK. Your agreement seems to be that 3!S shows a first round spade control.
(And conversely, I expect that the fact that partner bypassed 3!D denies a first round Diamond control)

So, if you were to bid 4!D, this should explicitly show a 2nd round Diamond control.

With this said and done, while I know that many people refuse to cue bid shortness in partner's naturally bid suit, I haven't heard that the converse is true. (That you don't show honors in a suit where partner has shown shortage. NOTE: I don't think that its worthwhile to show a King in a suit where partner might hold a stiff, but that's a whole different ball of wax)

I would bid 4!♣, after which partner would bid 4!H

Assuming that you're not playing LTTC, 4!H is a wonderful bid to hear, since your stiff rates to be against xxxx or some such (and conversely, you're spade honors are pulling more weight)

[nige1]

phoenixmj "I opened the bidding 1H and partner responded 2NT. My 3c rebid shows shortness in clubs. Partner's 3 spade rebid shows 1st round control in spades. My 3NT bid shows slam interest and asks for controls. My partner knows that I have either a singleton or void in clubs - so does partner show 1st or 2nd round control in diamonds or does he show clubs? Thanks in advance for any and all help. Also, if you have comments on the start of the bidding, please share."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Rotated deal to make West dealer. IMO:
- A 3♦ splinter would be a slightly better description of responder's hand.
- Opener's 3NT S/T showed appreciation of the hand's distributional values.
- Responder should now cue-bid his ♣A. Bypassing a control usually denies it.

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[phoenixmj]

nige1, on 2020-July-18, 18:34, said:

phoenixmj "I opened the bidding 1H and partner responded 2NT. My 3c rebid shows shortness in clubs. Partner's 3 spade rebid shows 1st round control in spades. My 3NT bid shows slam interest and asks for controls. My partner knows that I have either a singleton or void in clubs - so does partner show 1st or 2nd round control in diamonds or does he show clubs? Thanks in advance for any and all help. Also, if you have comments on the start of the bidding, please share."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Rotated deal to make West dealer. IMO:
- A 3♦ splinter would be a slightly better description of responder's hand.
- Opener's 3NT S/T showed appreciation of the hand's distributional values.
- Responder should now cue-bid his ♣A. Bypassing a control usually denies it.

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I think you mean a 4d splinter. We have been told to not splinter with 13 or more points because it takes too much bidding room. IN fact, we play 9-11 HCP for a splinter. WE used to start a 2/1 with an unbalanced hand, but then it seemed we were repeatedly told it was important to show the 4 card support so better to do Jacoby. Anyway, that is the reason for our bid.

BTW -partner did bid 4c showing first or second round control of clubs. But getting the diamond info was the real problem.

[Stephen Tu]

phoenixmj, on 2020-July-18, 21:15, said:

I think you mean a 4d splinter. We have been told to not splinter with 13 or more points because it takes too much bidding room. IN fact, we play 9-11 HCP for a splinter.

You seem to have been misinformed a bit. There is a point where it's too strong to splinter, because there are hands where partner will sign off, where slam is still good. But bidding on beyond game after signoff is also still risky. But this break point is more like ~15+ or maybe 16+ HCP. With 12-14(15?) hcp and a splinter you still want to be able to show it. Small slam typically requires ~27/28 working HCP (or compensating extra shape from opener, also depends whether holding ace of spl suit or not, you'd rather have ace in other suits solidifying those if missing an ace), if responder is only providing 10 HCP it requires opener to have a pretty good hand outside the spl suit, it's going to be pretty rare. You might well want to play multiple tiers of splinters, utilizing 1h-3s and 1s-3nt for one range (multiplexed, next step asks), and higher bids for another. (search for "tiered splinters"). Though some players prefer to use this to distinguish void vs singleton rather than HCP range. If I don't have tiers available, I'd rather reserve spl for 11+-14 hcp because to me slams are much more common over the stronger range yet this range cannot go beyond game comfortably. With ordinary 10-11 I'll do some artificial LR or whatever and bid game later.


Plus here the DQ being stiff means it may not be pulling full weight.

Too strong for splinter can go into Jacoby, though it works better with non-std Jacoby responses. (e.g. 1h-2nt-3c! showing minimum, 3d = further relay; higher 3S+ bids can be spl by responder too strong for direct).

Quote

WE used to start a 2/1 with an unbalanced hand, but then it seemed we were repeatedly told it was important to show the 4 card support so better to do Jacoby. Anyway, that is the reason for our bid.

You shouldn't really have a blanket rule for this. It depends on suit quality of the side suit, overall hand strength, and basically whether responding hand wants to query opener (2nt) and grab captaincy, or describe itself (direct spl, 2/1 followed by raise, maybe a 2/1 followed by a spl may be available). Typically you can't show everything, you have to look at the hand and decide what is going to be most useful to show partner, or decide if you'd rather ask partner what they have instead.

[heart76]

Totally agree with Stephen Tu.
An arrangement I find very nice is what is here called mini-splinters:
1H - 4D = void and limited to 14 working HCP (16 TP) - the full splinter
While 1H - 3D = 0-1 cards, invitational or better with the same upper limit - the mini-splinter
Jacoby 2NT takes care of the stronger hands.
It is also important to have the stronger hand in control of the hand. That is why we treat the splinter as a telling bid and Jacoby as asking. After the full splinter and s negative signoff by opener, responder can of course bid a S/T again if maximum, but this is still a telling bid.

In your example, we would have mini-splintered. Opener is now in control and knows about the D.
Since we also use mixed 1st-2nd round cues, he would now bid 3S.
Responder can now choose between 4C and 3NT = S cue (re-cue of the last suit).
4NT takes care of the rest.

In your example, as Nige already pointed out, the 3S cue already denies DA and a 4C cue seems correct.
The whole problem is that it is now impossible to show both controls in the minors. Remember also that 2NT denies short suits when one does not have the values to force a S/T, so it basically shows 2+D.

[Huibertus]

You have denied ♦ control. So My take would be ; 4 ♥ which also denies a ♦ control, says nothing about ♣, bid 4♣ which would promiss 1st ♣ AND at least 2nd ♦ control, or 4♦ which would be 1st / 2nd ♦ control and denies 1st ♣ control.

[dsLawsd]

Generally (absent a very strong or unusual hand type) when you have some feature to show (singleton diamond here)it is good to Tell first. 2NT should ask and suggest nothing to show.
Good to have partnership on firm ground of course as to particulars.

[SelfGovern]

phoenixmj, on 2020-July-18, 15:43, said:

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I opened the bidding 1H and partner responded 2NT. My 3c rebid shows shortness in clubs. Partner's 3 spade rebid shows 1st round control in spades. My 3NT bid shows slam interest and asks for controls. My partner knows that I have either a singleton or void in clubs - so does partner show 1st or 2nd round control in diamonds or does he show clubs?

Thanks in advance for any and all help. Also, if you have comments on the start of the bidding, please share.

I think you will find that your slam bidding improves if you cuebid to show first or second round controls.
On this hand that leads to this very nice auction:
1!H 2NT
3!C 3!D / shortage in clubs, excites N / diamond control is music to South's ears
3!S 4!C / Spade control / club control; opposite a singleton, must be showing the Ace
4NT / S thinks: I have AKQ of trump, partner is still interested in slam. He has the ace of clubs and what else to get to an opening hand?

If you want an interesting fillip, North could bid 4!D at his second turn (jumps in game-forcing auctions are never natural, and once we've found a major suit fit, we don't go looking for a minor-suit fit). This would be of great interest to S, knowing that partner has an opening hand in support of hearts with no wasted values in diamonds or clubs!

Also of note:
A splinter (1!H - 3!S, for instance) should show a minimum opening hand in support of partner's major -- that is, a max of 16 support points. If you are stronger than that, you lose far too much bidding space, and a better plan is to create a game force then start cuebidding.

If you play mini-splinters, you can add a bit of fun to them, as well by playing mini-splinters. A mini-splinter is defined as 4-card support with an invitational hand and a singleton, shown by a simple jump-shift over partner's one-of-a-major opening (1S - 3C or 1H - 2S, for instance). Then you still have the normal splinter for hands up to 16 support points. THE TWIST: you can mini-splinter on a hand too strong to make a normal splinter, and then take further action if partner signs off at 3M. THE CAVEAT: You need some way of accepting the game try other than jumping to game, in case responder has the maxi splinter. So I would want an agreement that in the auction
1!H - 3!C, opener's rebids have the following meanings:
3!D: How good is your mini-splinter? With aces and kings, bid 4; otherwise bid 3!H (Any bid inbetween the mini-splinter and game is a help-suit game try; the fewer suits available, the more general it is)
3!H: to play
3!S: Cuebid with at least some slam interest
3NT: Reeeeely Beeeeg hand -- expecting a cuebid if responder has any control other than shown so far (a void in clubs would be shown with 4!C, if not that 4!D with the !DA or K, 4!S with the !S A or K, 4!H with neither f those holdings)
4!C/!D: Cuebid *in case* responder has the maxi splinter. If not, responder just bids 4!H
4!H: To play, but not a slam-interested hand unless responder has a really good maxi-splinter

If you only play mini-splinters (and not the mini-maxi), then opener's rebids are a bit simpler; 3 or 4 of the trump suit are to play; suits below 3M are help suit game tries (or rarely slam tries), and bids above 3M are cuebids asking how good responder's mini-splinter is.

[umaranade]

Holding the given South hand and not knowing the North hand South with his minimum hand and having already shown the Singleton Club has no business to bid 3NT showing interest in a slam.More so with his fast 3losers in Diamonds.Whether one shows an Ace or King depending upon the agreements South must sign off in 4H thus denying any control in diamonds.North may or may not priced further as per his hand after having got this information..Add DK To South hand and then certainly the 3NT bid becomes justifiable.
Given the North hand I would consider it unforgivable to conceal the club suit headed by the Ace.2C is most certainly a wiser bid than the obnoxious 2NT bid. To respond 2NT and label it JACOBY is a cruel insult of Jacoby.

[miamijd]

Hi Phoenix:

I think there are several questions here:

1. Was 2NT the right call or would a 4D splinter have been better?

For the reasons Stephen Tu suggested, I like a 4D splinter here. You really only have 11 working HCP, which is fine for a splinter. Make the Qd a small stiff and the clubs AQJxx, and you would be too strong for a splinter.

A splinter works really well here, b/c once you know partner has 4 card trump support, a game force hand, and a stiff diamond, you are off to key-card land.

2. Was 4C the right call or would 4D have been better?

4C is right, because 4D should not be a cue bid. It should be "Last Train." If you don't know that convention, look it up. The suit under the trump suit is never a cue-bid. It's always Last Train (aka LTTC or Last Train to Clarksville). Basically, it says "I'm still interested in slam, but there is something I'm worried about." It could be stopper in the Last Train suit, or it could just be whether you have enough strength for a slam.

Over 4C, you probably should bid 4D Last Train. Since you have already bid 3NT (which I take it was a serious slam try), this would suggest lack of a diamond control rather than a worry about strength. Since partner has the D control you need, he will launch into key card.

The alternative to 4D LTTC is 5H, a convention called "Lackwood" that I hope never to have to use! It basically tells partner to pass with no control in the LTTC suit and then to bid up the line as in 0134.

Cheers,
Mike

[msjennifer]

umaranade, on 2020-July-20, 01:32, said:

Holding the given South hand and not knowing the North hand South with his minimum hand and having already shown the Singleton Club has no business to bid 3NT showing interest in a slam.More so with his fast 3losers in Diamonds.Whether one shows an Ace or King depending upon the agreements South must sign off in 4H thus denying any control in diamonds.North may or may not priced further as per his hand after having got this information..Add DK To South hand and then certainly the 3NT bid becomes justifiable.
Given the North hand I would consider it unforgivable to conceal the club suit headed by the Ace.2C is most certainly a wiser bid than the obnoxious 2NT bid. To respond 2NT and label it JACOBY is a cruel insult of Jacoby.

Sir,I agree with you reasoning. The modern style is to show the cheapest 1/2 round control.If this is agreed to then the 3♠bid has denied a control in ♦ suit and hence opener may not show any interest in a slam, IN my personal opinion and also experience , it is not very wise to conceal the club suit as with some other opening hand with opener holding say ♣Kx or KQx the suit will provide one or two discards in outside suits. With this in mind, there is absolutely no harm in bidding 2♣ rather than 2NT.Thanks.And just by the by,the responding hand is not worth a 4 Diamond splinter if playing weis Precision or Super Precision for that matter.In fact, playing Weis Precision I would prefer a Forcing 1NT (8-14 ) although I shall always keep the 2 Club response in mind ( if playing with an unfamiliar partner).

[TylerE]

umaranade, on 2020-July-20, 01:32, said:

Holding the given South hand and not knowing the North hand South with his minimum hand

Calling the south hand a minimum = LOL

[Cyberyeti]

It's not a great slam if they lead a trump, and another when they win the diamond, it appears to me you need clubs 4-3 but I think I want to be in it as they may well not lead trumps.

4♣ seems a no brainer, now you can continue in either of 2 ways.

4♠ as your outside control which tells partner no diamond duplication and allows him to keycard or just keycard yourself. Keycarding yourself is wrong if you would have bypassed 3♦ with the K not the A as partner's 4♣ would not guarantee any diamond control.

[Zelandakh]

phoenixmj, on 2020-July-18, 21:15, said:

I think you mean a 4d splinter. We have been told to not splinter with 13 or more points because it takes too much bidding room. IN fact, we play 9-11 HCP for a splinter.

When you have a fit, in makes much more sense to think of support points, often called total points (TP) than just hcp. In addition, you should be wary of counting a Q or J in a suit where you are splintering and try to avoid making a splinter at all with a singleton king. So your preferred range for a splinter would equate to 12-14TP, That is a little lower than most so you presumably open in a very conservative style. That is all just fine.

The issue here is your evaluation of the actual hand. You should essentially disregard the ♦Q here and count the hand as 14TP. That fits nicely within your splinter range, albeit right at the top.

Now to the J2NT auction. My assumption from the description of 3NT would be that you play this as "Serious", meaning that South is showing extras here. Given that, as hrothgar mentions, 4♣ - 4♥ should be all the encouragement that North needs to continue past game. It does not take much imagination - partner has nothing in ♣ and a maximum of ♦J + ♠KJ, so given your opening style, they must have at least ♥ AKJ and very likely even better.

I suspect what actually happened here is that the North player saw 4♥ and just passed automatically without really thinking about what partner's hand might look like. That happens quite a lot but is a skill you can train and improve.

(Hmmm, I just looked up the hand and it seems I was wrong. The actual auction was strange and successful: 1♥ - 3♦; 3NT - 4♣; 4♠ - 4NT; 6♥. Played against robots so no alerts to explain what was going on here. Were you sitting in the same room or chatting on skype perhaps?)