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Takeout double Or not?

Poll: Double trouble (13 member(s) have cast votes)

With this hand I would:

  1. Pass (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Double (3 votes [23.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 23.08%

  3. 2 Spades (7 votes [53.85%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 53.85%

  4. 2NT (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Something else (3 votes [23.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 23.08%

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#1 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 05:30


This hand came up in Speedball Tourney.
When the dust settled, I decided to cop most of the blame,
My question is: What's your call as North in this auction?

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#2 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 05:52

3: 6(+)S4-D4-C, a bit too strong for a 2 overcall
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#3 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 05:59

View Postnullve, on 2021-May-13, 05:52, said:

3: 6(+)S4-D4-C, a bit too strong for a 2 overcall

X followed by 3 regardless of whether this is a weak 2 or an Ekren style 2
Too strong for 2
A direct 3 would show a stronger suit for me
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#4 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 06:14

I would put the stop card out and then bid 2S, thus signalling a max 2S bid.
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#5 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 06:31

View Posteagles123, on 2021-May-13, 06:14, said:

I would put the stop card out and then bid 2S, thus signalling a max 2S bid.

And get penalised?
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#6 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 06:48

3 also like nullve. yes suit could be stronger but is headed by AK plus two more aces. hand is over 18 on kaplan/rubens and as the opponents have preempted I will assume partner will have 7-8 high card points. X followed by 3 is also an option, depending on partnership agreements but I would take this bid as this sort of hand also. one where a immediate 2 overcall shows a weaker hand than this. game will probably depend on no more than a finesse against the stronger ops hand. give your partner xx xxxx kxxx KJx and as long as trumps are 3-2 game is more than 50/50
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#7 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 06:57


Pilowski 'This hand came up in Speedball Tourney.
When the dust settled, I decided to cop most of the blame,
My question is: What's your call as North in this auction?'
++++++++++++++++++++
I rate
1. Double = T/O. If partner passes Q should prove useful.
2, 3 = NAT Good hand good suit. Nullve is usually right but I'd like better intermediates.
3. 2 = NAT Undebid.

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#8 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 07:14

View Postnige1, on 2021-May-13, 06:57, said:


Pilowski 'This hand came up in Speedball Tourney.
When the dust settled, I decided to cop most of the blame,
My question is: What's your call as North in this auction?'
++++++++++++++++++++
I rate
1. Double = T/O. If partner passes Q should prove useful.
2, 3 = NAT Good hand good suit. Nullve is usually right but I'd like better intermediates.
3. 2 = NAT Undebid.



2

Not tempted by anything else

The queen of Hearts isn't carrying any weight.
The spade suit is to weak to consider a jump bid.
Alderaan delenda est
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#9 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 09:22

View Postnige1, on 2021-May-13, 06:57, said:


Pilowski 'This hand came up in Speedball Tourney.
When the dust settled, I decided to cop most of the blame,
My question is: What's your call as North in this auction?'
++++++++++++++++++++
I rate
1. Double = T/O. If partner passes Q should prove useful.
2, 3 = NAT Good hand good suit. Nullve is usually right but I'd like better intermediates.
3. 2 = NAT Undebid.



I was a Spade bidder, but double is interesting. Assuming no penalty pass, what would be your planned follow-up Nige1? Would you bid Spades over a Lebensohl response or go with partner's choice of suit?
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#10 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 10:09

View PostDouglas43, on 2021-May-13, 09:22, said:

I was a Spade bidder, but double is interesting. Assuming no penalty pass, what would be your planned follow-up Nige1? Would you bid Spades over a Lebensohl response or go with partner's choice of suit?
If partner bids 2N (Lebensohl) I guess would bid 3, (assuming that to be constructive but N/F). I hope this suggests tolerance for alternative strains. Unfortunately Partner will probably judge this to be stronger than Nullve's direct 3 overcall. Oh Well. Anything could be right. Pilowsky posed a hard and interesting problem :)
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#11 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 11:05

For me it's a clear 3: 6-card is no problem, 7432 is, but the two side aces make up for that.
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#12 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 12:29

I'll content myself with 2.

I like the hand, but not THAT much. The spots and lack of intemediates is BAD.

If we're making anything, partner has to find a raise somehow.

Opposite a couple of nasty splits and a broke dummy I might struggle to make even 2.
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#13 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 12:39

2 - WTP? A good 6 loser hand for a 2 level overcall.
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#14 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 12:39

View PostTylerE, on 2021-May-13, 12:29, said:

Opposite a couple of nasty splits and a broke dummy I might struggle to make even 2.

And opposite Qxx xxxx KQJxx x you might struggle to go down in slam, as cyberyeti is bound to point out B-)
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#15 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 12:39

View PostTylerE, on 2021-May-13, 12:29, said:

Opposite a couple of nasty splits and a broke dummy I might struggle to make even 2.


Or maybe even struggle to make 1.
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#16 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 12:44

View Postpescetom, on 2021-May-13, 12:39, said:

And opposite Qxx xxxx KQJxx x you might struggle to go down in slam, as cyberyeti is bound to point out B-)


I would immediately get another partner if they passed 2 with that hand. Apologies in advance if I boot you from the table if you do something like this :lol:
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#17 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 13:19

2S - a slight underbid - not because of the 6 spades but because of the prime cards. If partner can't find a raise I doubt we've missed anything.
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#18 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 15:07

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-May-13, 13:19, said:

2S - a slight underbid - not because of the 6 spades but because of the prime cards. If partner can't find a raise I doubt we've missed anything.

2, for this reason.
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#19 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 15:59

View Postmw64ahw, on 2021-May-13, 06:31, said:

And get penalised?



;)
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#20 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-May-13, 17:27


Here's the entire hand and auction. Matchpoints btw.
Earlier that day, my partner sent me a message saying a friend had 'dropped' for tea, so Lebensohl was on my mind.
I thought that the double meant she had a strong hand with no decent 5-card suit to overcall with.
One of the lines that I took away from Lawrence on Takeout Doubles was "a five-card suit is gold".
I know there were 300+ more pages to the book and even stuff not covered, but with that in mind, I assumed my partner lacked a 5-card suit and had lots of points.
The 3 bid surprised me, and I assumed North had a strong hand with four chunky spades - so I left it.

Double-dummy suggests 3NT is optimal, but the top 6 pairs were in 4+1.

The bidding on the 4 tables reflects the results of the poll:
On five tables, West opened 2. One person overcalled 3, Three people overcalled 2, and one person doubled (followed by 3 3 4)
West opened 1 at two tables, making it easier for NS to reach 4.
Afterwards, I decided that since EW and I were all weak, I should have taken my partner to be much stronger than I imagined.

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