[pilowsky]

With no partnership agreement what's your call (matchpoints - if it matters)?
I'm aware that different people manage this type of hand differently.
I'm wondering what the average 'bidder on the North seat' does.

---

[DavidKok]

I have no idea what 'no partnership agreement' means here. Do we play inverted minor, so I can bid 3♣? How often will partner open 1♣ on only 2? Do I have any hope of saving the auction if it goes 1♣-1♥; 2NT (probably not)?

With my regular partner I would bid 2NT, showing a very weak raise to 3♣. Without agreements I would bid 3♣ and hope partner thinks it is inverted. Some might brave 1♥ but there are lots of ways for it to lose, especially since we presumably do not have good agreements about followups (NMF/XYZ/what-have-you over 1NT, or Wolff/re-transfers/etc. over 2NT).

I think partner is likely to have 18-19 balanced, and my hopes of game are not that good. If partner shows up with ♣AQx all is well, but almost any other holding gives no play for 3NT. Also, if partner does not have 18-19 balanced, we either belong in a high club contract (so raising is safe) or we are outgunned - in spades, and on point count. Getting to 3♣ quickly and safely caters to these situations.

[LBengtsson]

I am bidding the inverted minor 3♣ raise. The balance of probabilities says to me that we do not have game, and the opps can outbid us in ♠ suit. Why make it easy for the opps to compete? Yes, there will be 1 in 20 hands I guess where we can make 4♥ and the opps can not compete to 4♠ so I will go with the 19 in 20 hands where we make the most sensible and descriptive bid to partner quickly. If partner now goes 3NT then I will wish him luck. Bidding 1♥ here just allows the opps to compete easily; pass is even worse.

[nige1]

pilowsky'
With no partnership agreement what's your call (matchpoints - if it matters)?
I'm aware that different people manage this type of hand differently.
I'm wondering what the average 'bidder on the North seat' does..'
++++++++++++++++++
I rank calls as
1. 3C = PRE (IMO doesn't deny a 4-card major. .You can You should use up bidding space and show the fit.
2. 4C = PRE unless you play it as RKC
3. 1H = Pathetic and directs a lead you don;t want

---

[blackshoe]

Do we have any agreement as to what system we’re playing?

[Gilithin]

nige1, on 2022-March-21, 08:09, said:

3. 1H = Pathetic and directs a lead you don;t want

Is it still pathetic is partner can hold a 4432 19 count? I am with blackshoe in asking which system we are playing - in (4444) Acol one might perhaps bid differently to (5542) short club?

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2022-March-21, 05:28, said:

I think partner is likely to have 18-19 balanced, and my hopes of game are not that good. If partner shows up with ♣AQx all is well, but almost any other holding gives no play for 3NT

Well Axx offers a shot as long as he has the 7 and/or 5, AJx is marginally better, any 4 card holding including the ace is fine except AJ109.

[pilowsky]

blackshoe, on 2022-March-21, 08:27, said:

Do we have any agreement as to what system we're playing?

No, that's what "with no partnership agreement" means.
When I started out 1:2 would seem to me to be weak.
Later I started playing it as quite strong - nice long minor and prob. game forcing with 1:3 being weak.

ATM - for a bit of fun I'll play in an individual or as a sub. - and wondered what (in the absence of interference) the player on the Clapham omnibus would think.
It looks like on this bus anyway most people play inverted minors.

[LBengtsson]

pilowsky, on 2022-March-21, 18:19, said:

No, that's what "with no partnership agreement" means.
When I started out 1:2 would seem to me to be weak.
Later I started playing it as quite strong - nice long minor and prob. game forcing with 1:3 being weak.

ATM - for a bit of fun I'll play in an individual or as a sub. - and wondered what (in the absence of interference) the player on the Clapham omnibus would think.
It looks like on this bus anyway most people play inverted minors.

I assume system is GIB 2/1 as standard except if advised otherwise. I guess that without some form of partnership agreement the question can not be answered. What would I bid if not using GIB 2/1? I would still show support for my partners suit instead of bidding ♥s. I actually think that you do not have enough to put forward 1♥ on this hand, but you do have enough to support partners opening bid. So without inverted minors I would be bidding 2♣ as support, which I guess is the same as bidding 3♣ with inverted minors given that partner may have opened on 2+♣ in a 2/1 auction.

[pilowsky]

LBengtsson, on 2022-March-22, 04:13, said:

I assume system is GIB 2/1 as standard except if advised otherwise. I guess that without some form of partnership agreement the question can not be answered. What would I bid if not using GIB 2/1? I would still show support for my partners suit instead of bidding ♥s. I actually think that you do not have enough to put forward 1♥ on this hand, but you do have enough to support partners opening bid. So without inverted minors I would be bidding 2♣ as support, which I guess is the same as bidding 3♣ with inverted minors given that partner may have opened on 2+♣ in a 2/1 auction.

I was South. Partner bid 2♣.
My default system is basically GIB 2/1.

[akwoo]

There is no such thing as the "player on the Clapham omnibus" anymore. Actually, there probably never was.

[HardVector]

FYI, you stated NO agreements. Therefore, inverted minors is OFF. 3c would be invitational or forcing depending upon how far back in the bidding time machine you want to go. Everyone who voted 3c is stating that they are interested in game with this hand.

[pilowsky]

HardVector, on 2022-March-24, 15:08, said:

FYI, you stated NO agreements. Therefore, inverted minors is OFF. 3c would be invitational or forcing depending upon how far back in the bidding time machine you want to go. Everyone who voted 3c is stating that they are interested in game with this hand.

Whenever you sit down to play with someone and there are no agreements - especially on BBO where players come from all over the world - how do you 'know' anything?
You don't. You take a punt. You risk it. You are often wrong. Knowing what the commonest beliefs are is something we all grapple with.
Your claim that inverted minors is OFF - is a bold assertion.

Are transfers available? Is it normal to lead x from Axx? Is 1anything - 3anything weak or strong.
Why do men live or die for a dream?
These are the things that dreams are made of.

[smerriman]

pilowsky, on 2022-March-24, 15:19, said:

Knowing what the commonest beliefs are is something we all grapple with.

The main problem is that your poll question (what's the common approach) and your post (what is your call with a random BBO partner) are two very different questions. They vary considerably depending on the level / country of the player you are playing with. (And your subtitle 'what's your style' is a different question to both).

Some form of forcing minor raise will be unanimous amongst good players, yet probably shouldn't be bid if you hadn't discussed it..

[Gilithin]

pilowsky, on 2022-March-24, 15:19, said:

Whenever you sit down to play with someone and there are no agreements - especially on BBO where players come from all over the world - how do you 'know' anything?

Well usually I will take a few seconds to ask my partner for some basic system information. Or even if they are unresponsive at the very least take a look over their profile. Some players go so far as to go to clubs other than the MBC where some system information is implied. It is quite rare that one has to play bridge with absolutely zero information. If this is a common issue for you, you might consider amending your online habits.

[pilowsky]

smerriman, on 2022-March-24, 15:31, said:

The main problem is that your poll question (what's the common approach) and your post (what is your call with a random BBO partner) are two very different questions. They vary considerably depending on the level / country of the player you are playing with. (And your subtitle 'what's your style' is a different question to both).

Some form of forcing minor raise will be unanimous amongst good players, yet probably shouldn't be bid if you hadn't discussed it..

Thanks for that. I'll try to be clearer in future posts.
The issue of what kind of minor raise is forcing is the specific question.
I am not a "good player" but my impression is that for the bulk of players there is a great deal of variability about whether or not 1-3 is weaker or stronger than 1-2 in the minors.

All that aside you seem to be saying that the default "undiscussed" assumption is that minors are not inverted and that 1-2 is weak and that in the absence of any agreement can be passed.
Which is what I wanted to know.

[HardVector]

pilowsky, on 2022-March-24, 15:19, said:

Whenever you sit down to play with someone and there are no agreements - especially on BBO where players come from all over the world - how do you 'know' anything?
You don't. You take a punt. You risk it. You are often wrong. Knowing what the commonest beliefs are is something we all grapple with.
Your claim that inverted minors is OFF - is a bold assertion.

Are transfers available? Is it normal to lead x from Axx? Is 1anything - 3anything weak or strong.
Why do men live or die for a dream?
These are the things that dreams are made of.

If you are sitting down with someone you don't know who hasn't informed you of what they are doing, you have to assume a very base system. I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me with Blackwood. Someone bids 4n and I have to figure out is it 1430, 0314, or even straight Blackwood. With no information to go on, I am forced into assuming that it's straight Blackwood as much as I would like it to be some kind of keycard. It's the same with inverted minors.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

1H?

I am 6-4, have a fit, I am looking for major suit fit,
I dont feel bad about this.
If 2NT comes back, I am going with 5C.

Why do I need to worry about leads? One of the opponents
already passed.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

With no partnership agreement, maybe I should bid 1♦ just in case partner thinks we play Precision?

Anyway, I am certainly not going to raise clubs if I don't know if we play inverted minors.

1♥ is reasonable anyway. I usually agree with Nigel but I think "pathetic" is a bit harsh.

[P_Marlowe]

pilowsky, on 2022-March-21, 18:19, said:

No, that's what "with no partnership agreement" means.
When I started out 1:2 would seem to me to be weak.
Later I started playing it as quite strong - nice long minor and prob. game forcing with 1:3 being weak.

ATM - for a bit of fun I'll play in an individual or as a sub. - and wondered what (in the absence of interference) the player on the Clapham omnibus would think.
It looks like on this bus anyway most people play inverted minors.

If you play with no real prior discussion, you need to give partner room, to let him discribe his hand.
If you know, that a bid may have different meanings, do not make the bid.
How do you know, how he did take the bid? You have no idea.

1H response showes 4+ cards in the suit, 6+ HCP, which is close enough ..., we have only 4, but the King
in partners 3+ suit is certainly undervalued.
You will kno, what partners response means, ..., the response may or may not be brilliant, but you know,
where the current position of partnership understanding is.