[Cyberyeti]

Looking for how people handle these, can be quite awkward for approach forcing systems (not particularly interested in relay/strong club auctions).

Dealer S IMPs

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[thorvald]

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[Cyberyeti]

thorvald, on 2022-October-03, 06:10, said:

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So you're happy to be in this opposite Jxxxx, AQx, AK, Axx or would you expect partner not to bid 3N with 3 clubs ? Also is it clear that 4♠ agrees hearts given that when you show 5 hearts, you presumably also show 6 clubs, so shouldn't 4N be 6 ace blackwood (and I'm never clear how the Q ask works after that).

Also don't you have issues if partner happens to show a keycard less.

[mw64ahw]

Taking a Major's first approach which will miss any ♣ fit in this case.
♣ length can be inferred from the ♦void/failing to support ♠

1♠-2♥ GI 5+♥
4♣ 3+♥ SI w. ♥ honour and ♠ & ♣ controls - 4♦ void (otherwise go straight to showing keycards w. a ♦ control)
4♠ 2KCs (ignoring ♦) - 5♣ K♣ SF
6♦ All KCs/1st round control+Q♥+A♦ - 6/7♥

In practice I think we stop in 6♥

Without the ♠ control the bid would be 3♦ weaker SI showing a balanced/semi-balanced hand with 6♠. 3♥ then asks?

[LBengtsson]

Easy bidding seeing both hands, but blind I do agree this is difficult. This is where a rebid of 3NT showing 18-19 balanced wastes so much space. I like the idea of a minor rebid of 2♦ by opener to be both a relay and/or a suit. Or even a rebid of 2NT in 2/1, having established the GF, to be a variation of good/bad 2NT (18-19 or 13-14 range where opener rebids 2M with a minimum.)

The thing with slam bidding is that opener knows immediately after partner responds 2♣ that the hands will 99% be at that level, and the measure of good slam bidding is giving yourself the room to explore the best contract.

Obviously using both the ideas above (which would have to be by agreement) would mean that opener would have to advance beyond 3NT on the second (or third) rebid to show this type of hand, and/or for opener to be boss in the auction knowing that he is the stronger hand and drive the auction to slam.

As for the actual (thorvald) sequence 1♠ - 2♣ - 3NT (18-19) - 4♥ - 4♠ (cue agreeing ♥) I would have taken the 4♠ bid as an ace (first round control) not a king. But that is only my opinion. I guess that bidding 4NT instead of 4♠ here agrees the ♥ suit as trump but maybe I am wrong.

[Cyberyeti]

Our auction gets murky, weak NT 2/1 not GF.

1♠(4+♠ but only 4 if 4333)-2♣(nat 9+ with 5, 10+ with 4)
2N (GF not necessarily balanced) and now

normally you rebid 3♣ as any hand with 5+♣ and lose the heart suit, it seems reasonable to bid 3♥ which would normally be 4-4 not denying 3 spades, but if you then pull 3♠/3N to 4♥ does it show this hand ? well it's reasonably clear over 3N, but if partner bids 3♠, might you be showing Axx, AKQx, Qxx, QJxx or similar slamgoing in spades ? I've just fired an email off to partner to get his opinion.

It probably works better with our style of bidding to respond 2♥, but not sure I would do it at the table.

[mycroft]

Interesting. I'd probably be starting:

1♠-2♣;
2NT (extras)-3♥;
3NT (should I? could I be showing 5242 16, or is this auction always 18+ BAL?)-4♥ (okay, showed shape, do I want to be in slam opposite the 5242 or 5341 16?)

And then "18 opposite GF-opposite-11" should really push. Do I find 7? Possibly. Is it a bit scary? yes. Is it 70+% likely to make? Also yes. Is the other table getting there? That's a very interesting question. Is the state of the match such that I should care? Also a very interesting question.

[michel444]

in forcing pass SPREAD system quiet easy
south pass
north bid 1♣ positive 19+ TT
south bid 1♦ relay
and north have to described his hand as 5-5 ♣♥
so 1NT ♣♥
2♣ relay...
2 ♠ 5-5
2NT relay for shape
3♣ short ♦

[Tramticket]

The bidding starts 1S-2C; 2NT, where 2NT shows 15-18 balanced for us. (Although a 3NT rebid showing 19-20 is possible - close call).

Now 3H from North would surely show the 6-5 shape, since South has denied four hearts. South now drives forward towards (grand-)slam.

[mikeh]

1S 2C 2D 2H

1S normal opening

2C natural, gf. However we bid 2C with, say, 2=4=4=3.

2D. We don’t like jumping to 3N with this sort of hand, and we play 2D as artificial, merely denying 6 spades

2H natural

Now

2N 3H

2N is forcing…opener is eventually going to show extras but there is no particular rush.

3H confirms 5+ hearts and longer clubs

Now things get murky since I’ve never seen this auction and we haven’t discussed it. I think, but admit partner might not see it this way at the table, that opener has to agree hearts. 4H is obviously insufficient, in that we have far too much. I think 4D can’t logically b3 anything other than a cue, too strong for 4H.

Now 4N by north….a spade cuebid, since we use kickback. We don’t cue shortness here and we wouldn’t cue a king as our first cue when it is beyond game.

South can pretty much bid grand here, but maybe Ax KJxxx void QJxxxx is possible so I think 5C.

This fetches 5D. 5S. 6C. 7H

So


1S 2C 2D 2H 2N 3H 4D 4N 5D 5S (grand slam try since it forces to 6H) 6C 7H

[Gilithin]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-October-03, 07:49, said:

well it's reasonably clear over 3N, but if partner bids 3♠, might you be showing Axx, AKQx, Qxx, QJxx or similar slamgoing in spades ? I've just fired an email off to partner to get his opinion.

Make is so that 4♦ (4th suit at the 4 level) is slam interest in spades and now it is clear that 4♥ is this hand. This is an easy trick that can simplify your life in a wide range of auctions.

[Cyberyeti]

Gilithin, on 2022-October-03, 23:53, said:

Make is so that 4♦ (4th suit at the 4 level) is slam interest in spades and now it is clear that 4♥ is this hand. This is an easy trick that can simplify your life in a wide range of auctions.

This is a slight misunderstanding of the problem we face, the point is we've theoretically alraeady shown only 44 in clubs/hearts when we bid 3♥ rather than 3♣, the question is whether we can unshow it again at the 4 level, 4♦ would be a cue agreeing spades, 3N would be 2434, 4N a bigger 2434.

[nullve]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-October-03, 06:00, said:

Looking for how people handle these, can be quite awkward for approach forcing systems (not particularly interested in relay/strong club auctions).

Dealer S IMPs

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If no discussion beyond "2/1", maybe

1♠-2♣
3N(1)-4♥(2)
5♦(3)-5♠(4)
7♥(5)-P

(1) 18-19 BAL
(2) 5H6+C, obviously forcing
(3) diamond control (does it have to be the A?), at least no ♠A, maybe not obviously agreeing hearts
(4) cue, implying 1st round control of spades
(5) contract

?

[Gilithin]

nullve, on 2022-October-04, 10:08, said:

(1) 18-19 BAL

Silly question here perhaps but does everyone play this? What I have seen far more often suggested here and elsewhere is that if 2NT is natural (rather than the bucket) it covers minima and maxima while a 3NT jump covers in-between hands that chose not to open 1NT. It just strikes me as really weird to use up so much bidding space in what is highly likely to become a slam auction. Even in Acol, a large number of pairs can rebid 2NT here with a 5(332) 18-19hcp hand. Why on Earth would 2/1 make itself less efficient when it already established the game force and therefore ought to be in a much better position?!?

[thepossum]

Me (S) and GiB

1S-2C-3NT-4NT-6NT
2NT-3D-3H-4C-4H-5D-6H

Me (N) and Gib
1S-2H-3H-4D-4NT-5H-5NT-6-C-7H (I'm showing my major )
1S-2C-3NT-4H-5C-6C

[thepossum]

Why do I have to keep deleting duplicate posts. Something wrong these days

[Cyberyeti]

thepossum, on 2022-October-04, 22:37, said:

Why do I have to keep deleting duplicate posts. Something wrong these days

Probably because when it times out, the post does actually eventually happen, you don't need to send it again

[DavidKok]

Gilithin, on 2022-October-04, 20:30, said:

Silly question here perhaps but does everyone play this? What I have seen far more often suggested here and elsewhere is that if 2NT is natural (rather than the bucket) it covers minima and maxima while a 3NT jump covers in-between hands that chose not to open 1NT. It just strikes me as really weird to use up so much bidding space in what is highly likely to become a slam auction. Even in Acol, a large number of pairs can rebid 2NT here with a 5(332) 18-19hcp hand. Why on Earth would 2/1 make itself less efficient when it already established the game force and therefore ought to be in a much better position?!?

Yes, your treatment is pretty much standard.
There are some differences depending on whether one plays a shape first approach (also called 'Hardy 2/1') where a 2M rebid shows 6(+), or its modern variant where 2M shows a balanced hand and 2NT shows 6(+) in the opening suit, or a less shape-focused approach ('Lawrence 2/1') where 2M is a catch-all and 2NT specifically shows a balanced hand with the unbid suits stopped. Also some people reserve the jump to 3NT for a solid 7(+) suit, similar to 1m-1M; 3NT. But other than this 2NT as two-way 12-14 or 18-19 with 3NT showing 15-17 but no desire to open 1NT is standard.

[nullve]

Gilithin, on 2022-October-04, 20:30, said:

Silly question here perhaps but does everyone play this? What I have seen far more often suggested here and elsewhere is that if 2NT is natural (rather than the bucket) it covers minima and maxima while a 3NT jump covers in-between hands that chose not to open 1NT.

You're right. For example:

Max Hardy, Standard Bidding for the 21st Century, p. 65 said:

5. Opener's rebid of three notrump shows the value of an opening notrump (15+ to 18-HCP).
[...]
6. Opener's rebid of two notrump promises stoppers in both unbid suits and usually a balanced hand (5-3-3-2). The values for this rebid will be minimum (12+ to 15- HCP), or very strong (18+ HCP). On rare occasions, this rebid will be made on a hand that has a singleton in responder's suit.

It would be safer to interpret 3N as 18-19 BAL in a country like Norway, where hardly any 2/1 pair opens 1M with 5M(332) if in range for 1N anymore.

I agree that it's common (and better) to play the 2N rebid as (12-14 or 18-19) BAL.

[thorvald]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-October-03, 06:20, said:

So you're happy to be in this opposite Jxxxx, AQx, AK, Axx or would you expect partner not to bid 3N with 3 clubs ? Also is it clear that 4♠ agrees hearts given that when you show 5 hearts, you presumably also show 6 clubs, so shouldn't 4N be 6 ace blackwood (and I'm never clear how the Q ask works after that).

It is always interesting who should ask, but I have a meta-rule, that after 3N followed by some slamgoing bid like 4♥ here, then 4N is no interest.

You could play 4♠ as kickback for ♥ and 5♦ as kickback for ♣.

If partner has 3♣ the grand is 50-50 assuming we are missing the Queen, but we know he has 8 cards in major and only 5 minor cards. Based on our length in clubs he will have only 2♣ most of the time.

Cyberyeti, on 2022-October-03, 06:20, said:

Also don't you have issues if partner happens to show a keycard less.

Missing a keycard I will just bid the slam. Worst case I will have to find trump Queen.

And yes he might still have the perfect hand for a grand with AQ in ♣ and ♥ and ♠K, but that is the cost of playing a natural system.