[jillybean]

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Playing Multi 2 way , is this a 3♠ opening?

[sfi]

I'm not sure specifically what you mean by 'Multi 2 way', but it looks a lot more like a 1S opening than a preempt to me.

[mikeh]

 sfi, on 2023-January-27, 00:09, said:

I'm not sure specifically what you mean by 'Multi 2 way', but it looks a lot more like a 1S opening than a preempt to me.

Seat and vulnerability matter. But it’s not a weak two bid so it’s not a multi 2D whatever you mean by 2 way multi.

It’s actually perfect for what I’m currently playing: 2S 10-13 hcp. Usually only 6 spades but the weak hand, including no ads, makes it seem like a good idea.

To me, it lacks the defence suggested by 1S but is too good for 3S unless vulnerable. At both red id be nervous but I think it’s ideal for a red v white 3S…indeed I might choose that instead of a 2S intermediate bid.

[jillybean]

2 way multi, 6-10 6 card M or 20-22 balanced as opposed to
3 way multi as above, or 8 playing tricks in a minor

I know there are variations but that is what is played around these parts in NZ

[sfi]

 mikeh, on 2023-January-27, 00:28, said:

It’s actually perfect for what I’m currently playing: 2S 10-13 hcp. Usually only 6 spades but the weak hand, including no ads, makes it seem like a good idea.

I’ve been playing something similar, but with an 8-11 range. I wouldn’t open 2S playing it, but 10-13 looks ok for this hand.

[sfi]

 jillybean, on 2023-January-27, 00:46, said:

2 way multi, 6-10 6 card M or 20-22 balanced as opposed to
3 way multi as above, or 8 playing tricks in a minor

I know there are variations but that is what is played around these parts in NZ

Thanks. I do my best to avoid any strong options when partner wants to play multi. It’s nice to be able to pass 2D or to jump around without stuffing up partner’s plan.

[Cyberyeti]

 jillybean, on 2023-January-27, 00:46, said:

2 way multi, 6-10 6 card M or 20-22 balanced as opposed to
3 way multi as above, or 8 playing tricks in a minor

I know there are variations but that is what is played around these parts in NZ

That 3 way multi is not good. The comment I remember was from Sally Horton's book about her partnership with Sandra Landy where they canned the strong 2 in a minor after a lot of bidding practice where they frequently ended up in the wrong contract without any palpably bad bids. Strong balanced is much more manageable as you can use a 3N response as 4-4 in the majors, game values but no slam ambitions opposite the big balanced.

[TMorris]

1 ♠ opening for me in 1st or 2nd

[jillybean]

 sfi, on 2023-January-27, 01:45, said:

Thanks. I do my best to avoid any strong options when partner wants to play multi. It’s nice to be able to pass 2D or to jump around without stuffing up partner’s plan.

Do you only play Multi as strong weak in either Major? I agree, I'd hate to add the strong minor hand but 20-22 balanced seems ok.

BTW what do Multi players use a 2NT opening for?

[Cyberyeti]

 jillybean, on 2023-January-27, 14:17, said:

BTW what do Multi players use a 2NT opening for?

We used to play 19-20/21-22 one in the multi the other as the 2N opener.

[jillybean]

 Cyberyeti, on 2023-January-27, 14:49, said:

We used to play 19-20/21-22 one in the multi the other as the 2N opener.

ok, and your 1x 2NT rebid is 17-18?

[sfi]

 jillybean, on 2023-January-27, 14:17, said:

Do you only play Multi as strong in either Major? I agree, I'd hate to add the strong minor hand but 20-22 balanced seems ok.

BTW what do Multi players use a 2NT opening for?

We only play Multi as weak in either major. If I'm playing 2/1, 2NT shows something like 20-21 balanced, with 18-19 opening 1 of a suit and rebidding 2NT. Stronger hands start with 2C. We've found the preemptive value of a multi with no strong options far outweighs the precision we gained from more strong balanced ranges. For example, if you hold

Axxx
KQxx
x
xxxx

And partner opens 2D multi. If you have no strong ranges, you can simply bid 4H (pass or correct) or use similar agreements if you have them. If responder has to worry about a strong balanced range, then you can't do that without worrying about finding the right fit or whether you have a slam. And if partner has one of the weak hands, it will be easier for your LHO to enter the auction since you can't jump straight to the 4-level.

[Cyberyeti]

 jillybean, on 2023-January-27, 14:50, said:

ok, and your 1x 2NT rebid is 17-18?

No we use the 2N rebid as artificial GF unbalanced to deal with the "death hand" and many other GFs, and play a wide range 1N rebid.

[jillybean]

I like that

[Cyberyeti]

 jillybean, on 2023-January-27, 15:28, said:

I like that

Broad structure

say 1♦-1♠-2N

3♣ is pretty much forced, you might rebid a really long spade suit (8, or 7 with a stiff diamond at most) or show a massive 2 suiter (NT is a cipher for clubs in all these sequences)

over 3♣

3♦ is 6 or more diamonds, may have 3 spades but not more
3♥ is 6♦-4♥ may still have 3 spades (5-4 without 3♠ just reverses)
3♠ is 5♦-3♠(41) or 3064
3N is 6♦-4♣ not 3♠ NF but HUGE, 2♣ is all but forcing
4♣ is 4351/4261
4♦ is 2452
4♥ is 4153/4162

This runs in conjunction with immediate void splinters over 1♠ and 1♦-1♠-4♦ as "nothing other than aces are worth anything in the other 2 suits", and change of suit forcing unless you didn't have a response, so there is no need to do anything extravagant with your 18-19 with 5 diamonds and 4 clubs, just rebid 2♣. We actually use 1♦-1♠-3♣ as a hand like x, xx, AQJxx, KQJxx NF, 2 good suits but not a huge hand.

You can adjust some of the meanings relatively easily, it means 1♦-1♠-3♦ is limited by the failure to bid 2N

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2023-January-27, 14:17, said:

Do you only play Multi as strong weak in either Major? I agree, I'd hate to add the strong minor hand but 20-22 balanced seems ok.

BTW what do Multi players use a 2NT opening for?

19+-21, but we won’t play multi with a strong option


For example, the auction 2D (p) 4C says transfer into your major

2D (p) 4D says bid your major

These jumps to 4m can be made on weak hands with both majors or strong hands…including hands that intend to bid slam (which would usually entail the 4D bid then keycard or cuebids)

If one has to cater to the rare balanced strong hand, these bids go out of the window, but they are very effective when they arise.

Also, as others have said, playing only weak multi gives responder opportunity to create issues….if white v red, one can even psyche a pass of 2D. Analogous to my all time favourite and now, alas, illegal convention..the multi 2H. We’d often pass 2H with weak hands, not caring about -200 or -250, rather than giving second hand another chance.

We got a LOT of good results from that….when Kokish says he can’t think of a defence to the multi 2H, you know it’s good��

So, while there are good defences to 2D, they’re still vulnerable to responder sometimes being able to muddy the waters…which he cannot afford to do opposite a strong option.

As for 1x 1y 2N…..in one partnership, 1C 1R (transfer) 2N is a strong 4 card raise, at least 17+, with artificial responses

1D 1M 2N is strong, 16+, 6 diamonds and fewer than 3M or very strong, gf with 3M. 1D 1M 3D is 16+, less than gf, with 3M

We can do this because we open all balanced hands out of range for notrump with 1C….3352 18 count is a 1C opener. 1D is 5+ diamonds unbalanced or 4 diamonds, almost always some 4441 but rarely 4 very good diamonds and 5 weak clubs, with a stiff major….to avoid 1C 1R (transfer to the stiff major) problem. For us 1C 1R 1N is 17-19 balanced so with say 3145, if we open 1C and partner bids 1D,
we have to rebid 2C..ugh

[jillybean]

This is getting complicated, I was enjoying my limited version of multi.

What is the illegal (where?) Multi 2♥?

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2023-January-27, 20:34, said:

This is getting complicated, I was enjoying my limited version of multi.

What is the illegal (where?) Multi 2♥?

2H as a weak two in either major. It’s devastating. The WBF outlawed it because it was impossible to play against.

Pick up a bad hand as responder, you just pass 2H. I often went down a lot…against their game. I played it for over a year. It came up many times. The local club let us play it, since we were practicing for the team trials.I think our average matchpoint score was over 90%

I expect stronger opps would have done better in the long run , but even against some of the strongest players in the country, we carved them up.

This was a Lauria-Versace invention, I believe…the WBF certainly wasn’t reacting to MY bidding, lol.

[sfi]

 mikeh, on 2023-January-27, 21:36, said:

2H as a weak two in either major. It’s devastating. The WBF outlawed it because it was impossible to play against.

It's a Brown Sticker convention and subject to restrictions on when pairs can play it. I don't see anything in the WBF system regulations that outlaws it though, unless they are arguing the requirement that "a viable suggested defence to any Brown Sticker convention must be filed" is impossible to meet. It would be allowed in most events in Australia, for example.

[jillybean]

 sfi, on 2023-January-27, 15:13, said:

We only play Multi as weak in either major. If I'm playing 2/1, 2NT shows something like 20-21 balanced, with 18-19 opening 1 of a suit and rebidding 2NT. Stronger hands start with 2C. We've found the preemptive value of a multi with no strong options far outweighs the precision we gained from more strong balanced ranges. For example, if you hold

Axxx
KQxx
x
xxxx

And partner opens 2D multi. If you have no strong ranges, you can simply bid 4H (pass or correct) or use similar agreements if you have them. If responder has to worry about a strong balanced range, then you can't do that without worrying about finding the right fit or whether you have a slam. And if partner has one of the weak hands, it will be easier for your LHO to enter the auction since you can't jump straight to the 4-level.

I actually meant I like this, but cyberyeti reply interrupted the flow. It may all be too much to worry about as I will only be playing multi for a few more weeks, but it's good to know.