[jillybean]

As you have probably heard, we have a wee bit more rain than normal here in NZ so I have more time to sit inside and think about bridge hands.

When I started playing RKC, my partner played 1430 so I simply adopted that, no questions asked.
When I do think about it, having 1(4) keycard is more likely than (0)3 and you now have 4♦ available to continue the slam try, as opposed to starting at 4♥ which is problematic if your trump suit is ♥'s.

I know some have strong opinions, is it worth crowing about?

[sfi]

jillybean, on 2023-January-27, 15:02, said:

As you have probably heard, we have a wee bit more rain than normal here in NZ so I have more time to sit inside and think about bridge hands.

When I started playing RKC, my partner played 1430 so I simply adopted that, no questions asked.
When I do think about it, having 1(4) keycard is more likely than (0)3 and you now have 4♦ available to continue the slam try, as opposed to starting at 4♥ which is problematic if your trump suit is ♥'s.

I know some have strong opinions, is it worth crowing about?

As you say, 1 keycard is more likely than 0 so you are more likely to be able to ask about the trump queen in auctions when you care about it. But this is only true when the suit is hearts, so the gains are real but kind of small.

I normally do whatever partner wants and don't worry too much about it - there are areas of the system I care more about. If I can't introduce Kickback I'd prefer partner plays something they're comfortable with.

[smerriman]

1430 is better if the strong hand is asking for keycards, which is usually more common. 0314 is better if the weak hand is asking for keycards for the same reason. 0314 is also better if your partner forgets you're playing RKCB

Not playing 4NT as keycard in hearts is the optimal solution in either case. But that requires a significant amount of partnership work to get right without regular disasters, so likely isn't worth it for the types of partnerships you're talking about.

[johnu]

1430 allows you to ask for the trump queen when hearts are trump and you get a 1 keycard response. If 4NT has a very strong hand, 0314 allows a trump queen ask after a zero keycard response. Overall, a small advantage to 1430 IMO.

If clubs are trump, 1430 may be a disaster if 4NT bidder only had 3 keycards, so 0314 has a clear advantage.

The best solution is the one you and your partner won't forget.

[nullve]

https://www.bridgeba...5-rkcb-cleanup/

[thepossum]

For some reason I find 1430 scans(?) better than 0314 which is sad
1430 sounds like a year which is memorable

Has anyone ever tried other combinations of numbers.

I like Standard Blackwood myself 0123. Is that right?

I like the idea of it being variable depending on who is asking. Has that been tried?

What upsets me is being forced to a minor slam with too few keycards. Any solutions?

Short answer. I would play 1430 because its easier to remember provided my partner plays the same

[TMorris]

1430 for me but I don't use keycard for minor suit slams very often prefering DI after cuebids.

[pescetom]

In addition to other things said so far, Exclusion works better (on the whole) with 0314, a 4♣ ask over preempts works better with 1430.
But I think you can get by with either as the basic agreement, so long as you don't use 0314 with a 4NT ask over hearts.

[mw64ahw]

nullve, on 2023-January-27, 19:03, said:

https://www.bridgeba...5-rkcb-cleanup/

It doesn't mention Kickbo although there is not a lot is written about this.
Very simply
4X+1 is an even number of keycards
Anything higher than 4X+1 is an odd number of keycards plus a non-Ace control the way I play it.
This approach can continue the cue-bidding from 3X+1 to 4X-1 to make sure there are not 2 quick losers if that hasn't already been established
5X+1 says we have all the keycards with/without the Queen
Voids can be shown by re-cueing; this could also be KQ, but you can usually work it out especially if earlier bidding is shape showing which identifies a shortage.

[jillybean]

Thanks, I'm glad to finally put this to rest. If I can get my cue bidding correct, KC will just be the finishing touch.

[Frank_lol_]

I don't think it matters that much; I played 1403 because I'm taught that way (and its 1403 not 1430 for some reasons although they are the same thing).

[jillybean]

I'm not sure where you are from Frank, it's definitely 1430.

[pescetom]

1403 is more logical, but 1430 is what we're usually aiming for and thus easier to remember.

[apollo1201]

pescetom, on 2023-January-29, 06:58, said:

1403 is more logical, but 1430 is what we're usually aiming for and thus easier to remember.

Actually where I’m from is either 30-41 or 41-30. That was even the code of the front door in the building a club I used to play at was located!

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the main difference is, that 0314 with 4NT being the asking bid, works reasonably well for both majors and both minors,
1430 works only for both majors and diamonds, not for clubs, you need something like 4m as a key card asking bid,
due to the fact, that the 0 answer gets you past your 5 level contract.

My prefered agreement is, 4NT as the only key card asking bid, 4m natural and forcing, hence 0314.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pescetom]

P_Marlowe, on 2023-January-29, 14:31, said:

the main difference is, that 0314 with 4NT being the asking bid, works reasonably well for both majors and both minors,
1430 works only for both majors and diamonds, not for clubs, you need something like 4m as a key card asking bid,
due to the fact, that the 0 answer gets you past your 5 level contract.

My prefered agreement is, 4NT as the only key card asking bid, 4m natural and forcing, hence 0314.

I respectfully disagree.
0314 with 4NT as asking bid for hearts does *not* work reasonably well (no Q ask possible after the most likely positive reply with strong hand asking).
I imagine that is why 1430 was invented in the first place.
Not sure why you would want to avoid 4♦ as asking bid over clubs either, come to that.
I agree that there are sound arguments for not using a major as asking bid over a red suit, but that is another story.

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2023-January-30, 16:54, said:

I respectfully disagree.
0314 with 4NT as asking bid for hearts does *not* work reasonably well (no Q ask possible after the most likely positive reply with strong hand asking).
I imagine that is why 1430 was invented in the first place.
Not sure why you would want to avoid 4♦ as asking bid over clubs either, come to that.
I agree that there are sound arguments for not using a major as asking bid over a red suit, but that is another story.

We are relying heavily on cue bidding, quite often we wont need the key card ask.
Key Card asks are only really needed in case you want to investigate Grand Slams, and tools like Spiral Scan, need every single step to find out specific
card holdings. Using 4m as some kind of conditional Key Card Ask, i.e. combing a quantiative invite with Key Card Ask is certainly a reasonable agreement.

..., but only if you happen to play a reasonably amount of hands in a established partnership.
If this is not the case, this is a waste of time / energy.
I know, peoble get worked up over Key Card structures, and I will say Yes to everything, knowing it wont come up anyway.


And finally: The comment that 4NT 3041 is enough was also target at Intermediate / Advanced Players.

[pescetom]

P_Marlowe, on 2023-January-31, 08:39, said:

We are relying heavily on cue bidding, quite often we wont need the key card ask.
Key Card asks are only really needed in case you want to investigate Grand Slams, and tools like Spiral Scan, need every single step to find out specific
card holdings. Using 4m as some kind of conditional Key Card Ask, i.e. combing a quantiative invite with Key Card Ask is certainly a reasonable agreement.

Fair enough if you are part of the minority that relies heavily on control bidding even in clubs, giving up 4♦ to RKCB is costly then I agree (in one partnership we do give it up, in another we have meta-rules to define when it is a control-bid and when it is RKCB).
But I think most I/A don't do that, yet don't consider the cheap kickback either, which is rather odd.

[blackshoe]

1430 is the score for making small slam in a major vulnerable. 0314 is π.

[apollo1201]

blackshoe, on 2023-February-02, 22:01, said:

0314 is π

That one is hilarious