[jillybean]

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12-14 NT but partner is more likely to open 1x on a 12-14 with some shape.

[DavidKok]

I would sign off. We've already made a slam try, if partner is maximum in context they can bid on. If they have a minimum in context we probably don't belong at the 6-level. Opposite a hand like ♠Axx, ♥Qxxx, ♦AQxxx, ♣x we might still be in trouble on a spade lead (we have to ruff clubs, set up the diamonds and draw trumps, but if hearts don't break 2-2 there are entry issues to get to the good diamonds if they split 4-2) and that is honestly an above average hand on the auction. If partner has a strong notrump our chances are even worse - give partner 4=4 in the reds, probably 3=4=4=2, and we don't have a source of tricks.

As an aside I'd have bid 4♣ over 3♥. 3♠ and then pulling shows a spade control for me.

[jillybean]

3♠ says bid 3NT with a spade stopper
Pulling 3NT says I really have heart slam interest , keep cue bidding.

[DavidKok]

jillybean, on 2023-February-07, 04:50, said:

3♠ says bid 3NT with a spade stopper
Pulling 3NT says I really have heart slam interest , keep cue bidding.

4♣ directly also says "I have heart slam interest, keep cue bidding". The difference between the two sequences can be used to show/deny a spade control.

[jillybean]

I need to know about a spade control, this seems the cheapest way to find out

[DavidKok]

If you bid 4♣, denying a spade control, partner will sign off without one. The issue with taking this route to find a spade control is that partner is now in not as great a position to evaluate your trick-taking potential, so it is more costly to give back captaincy.

[mw64ahw]

Denial cue-bids (originally this was a stopper ask?) are fine, but whether it is an automatic 3NT bid depends on whether you intend to keep a 3NT contract in the picture.
If not then assign a specific meaning to 3NT; non-serious, missing trump honour etc. so a suit bid then continues the cue-bidding sequence.
Also perhaps denial cue-bids shouldn't be mixed with control bids, but I'm not well placed to comment on this practice

[paulg]

jillybean, on 2023-February-07, 04:55, said:

I need to know about a spade control, this seems the cheapest way to find out

But you don't find out. Partner can easily hold ♠QJxx ♥QJxx ♦AQx ♣Kx

[mw64ahw]

paulg, on 2023-February-07, 08:07, said:

But you don't find out. Partner can easily hold ♠QJxx ♥QJxx ♦AQx ♣Kx

♠ in your hand above are a stopper/3rd/4th round control to stop ♠ running with the intention to play
I'm unsure whether 3♠ asks for a stopper or 1st/2nd round control?
I suppose it could be either given after 3♠-3NT-4♣ reverting to 4♥ would say stopper

[mikeh]

I must be out of step. This auction makes no sense.

I can understand wanting, on some hands, to use 3S as a stopper ask. It’s not my style, once we’ve found hearts. It’s different if our fit is in a minor, since 3N may play better than 5m, but I’d usually expect 4M to be best. It’s important for partner to know whether our 3S is a cuebid or stopper ask and my opinion is that cuebid is more valuable.

But that’s not the issue. If 3S were stopper ask, then you only use it when you intend to pass 3N

Once you pull, 3S is unambiguously a cue bid! You’ve cuebid xxx!

If you’re planning a slam try, then it’s simply basic bridge to bid 4C over 3H. That does several things.

It shows slam interest, otherwise you’d pass or bid 4H

It shows a club control

And it DENIES a spade control.

Look at what 4C tells partner. Look at your hand. Does your hand look like what you’ve told partner?

If I were opener, I’d know that you had a spade control, probably (given the auction and the fact that I’m presumably looking at spade values) shortness

So I’d expect a better playing hand than you have.

As for what to do now, after perpetrating this sequence, obviously I bid 4H.

Unfortunately I’m reduced to hoping that partner doesn’t think I have the hand I’ve shown…I hope that she either has a bad hand, in context, or that’s she’s timid. The last thing I want is for her to bid on the basis on the description I’ve erroneously given.

Fwiw, xxx in a suit bid by an opp is the worst possible holding for having slam interest. That doesn’t mean I’d give up on slam over 3H but it sure as heck means that I will avoid showing a non-existent control in the suit.

[jillybean]

Here's another thing we need to fix, we are using 3♠ in this sequence to ask for s stopper (3NT) then pulling 3NT to show next cue and expecting partner to signoff if 3NT was made on QJxx. We thought we were saving an entire level of bidding using this method, I'm glad I posted this auction. It's a good reminder that I should stick with forums and not go off devising new meanings for bids on my own.

[jillybean]

DavidKok, on 2023-February-07, 05:01, said:

If you bid 4♣, denying a spade control, partner will sign off without one. The issue with taking this route to find a spade control is that partner is now in not as great a position to evaluate your trick-taking potential, so it is more costly to give back captaincy.

If I bid 4♣, denying a ♠ stopper, does ♦ from partner show both ♦ & ♠ control?

[DavidKok]

That depends on your agreements. Some people play that 4♦ here promises a spade control but says nothing about a diamond control, other people play that 4♦ promises a spade control and denies a diamond control (with both opener is supposed to bid past 4♥, the argument being that a hand with both missing controls is worth going past game). For me it shows the former, which I personally consider a special case of Last Train (any hand without a spade control cannot be in doubt about slam, so 'generic extras' implies a spade control on the auction).
You can play that 4♦ shows a control in both suits, claiming that hands without a control in their own long suit are not optimistic about slam and can bid 4♥. This has the downside of making responder guess about spades when you do sign off and I consider it an inferior agreement.

[jillybean]

Is there a simpler version?

[mikeh]

LTTC (last Train To Clarksville, a big hit for The Monkees way back) is a dangerous convention that ought not to be played unless both you and partner understand it.

It is tge use of the cuebid immediately below trump, at the game level, to show further interest in slam, not strong enough or with the right controls to force to slam but too good to sign off. It neither shows nor denies control in the suit, but typically if one has a control, one is going to bid beyond game if partner signs off (unless the auction telegraphs missing a key control).

So it’s a complex device which requires both partners being on the same page

Fwiw, I’ve had it on my CC for years without it ever coming up, so in both my serious partnerships we took it off. I haven’t held a hand, since then, when I wished I had it available

Yes, if it comes up and if both remember, it can help. But if I were to list 30 conventions that aspiring experts should use, LTTC wouldn’t make the cut.

To me, if I deny a spade control via 4C, it’s idiotic for north to say (by bidding 4D) ‘I know you have at best xx in spades but don’t worry…I’m still interested in slam with my xx in that suit’

Thus 4D guarantees a spade control, shortness or one/both of AK.

[jillybean]

Let's fix the auction

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Keycard?

[DavidKok]

I think LTTC is one of the most useful slam conventions, and is really quite simple. It comes up more often than not on slam auctions. I think we're just going to have to disagree here.

The simpler version of control bids (not LTTC) is: 4♦ shows both a spade and a diamond control. With a spade control and no diamond control you bid 4♥ and might miss a good slam. Make sure to do it in tempo since a quick pass definitely denies a spade control so a slow pass is UI for 'I have a spade but not a diamond control and am stuck'.

On the new auction I am still signing off. Partner is allowed to bid on over 4♥ with a nice maximum or I wouldn't have bothered with 4♣.

[mw64ahw]

I play a simple version, no Last Train, no serious/frivolous 3NT.
Simply skipping a suit denies control. If you don't have a control In a skipped suit sign-off.
In contrast skipping 3NT shows 1+ honour if setting trumps or 2+ if declaring. Again if you are missing 2 honours sign-off.
When it comes to 4X-1
4X-1 void
4X no control in 4X-1
4X+1 upwards slam invite with 4X-1 control

On the above hand the expected strength of the 3♥ bid will define whether I start cue-bidding. Without interference Yes; with interference No if 3♥ can be merely competitive.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2023-February-07, 12:52, said:

Let's fix the auction

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Keycard?

The question you should always ask, when considering keycard, is: ‘do I know what to do over all possible answers partner may give?’

If the answer is ‘yes’ then keycard. If the answer is ‘no’ then don’t

It’s not complicated but many non-experts think keycard is how to show slam interest rather than how to know what to do next.

It’s up to you here. Personally, I bid 5D. I do not want one in slam opposite Kxx in spades😀. But I do opposite many Kx hands. Keycard can’t tell me about that issue,so I don’t use it

Partner is supposed to think about why I didn’t keycard, draw inferences, and take appropriate action. Kx is a good spade holding on the auction. I’ve shown at least two spades so Kxx is a potentially bad holding. Tge spade Ace is almost always good (Axxx is dangerous since I’m know to have xx or xxx). And so on….btw, if we have slam, partner can infer that I have very probably good trumps…I’ve cued clubs and diamonds and lack a spade control.

[jillybean]

I like that. I think I've shown slam interest bidding 4♣ over 3♥ but now I'm not sure how to go on, other than keycard which could still leave me with a guess for 6.
5♦ tells partner I have ♦K and let's him evaluate his hand rather than me taking ill conceived control. easy