[jillybean]

 smerriman, on 2023-April-14, 13:29, said:

"SJS asking partner to cue" is not how SJS work, so the auction won't go like that at all.

The way we play SJS is the suit is set, partner has a self sufficient holding, slam interest and asks partner to cue.
I'm not sure how your SJS works.

If I was bidding this with SJS partner, he likes to show all cues after the SJS, so ♦ can be made on shortage. Non standard, I don't really have a strong opinion on this.

In either auction, if you ask for Aces partner will show 1

[smerriman]

@mike: OK, that sounds better. So if partner has a singleton spade, they raise to 4♠, and we can keycard or cuebid from there. If partner bids 4 of a minor, the only bid is 4♠? And 3nt from partner, having already denied a stopper, shows.. a partial stopper?

@jillybean - ah, your first S meant strong, not Soloway. I have no idea how they work then, I thought they died out years ago when everyone moved onto Soloway.

[Cyberyeti]

 jillybean, on 2023-April-14, 13:48, said:

The way we play SJS is the suit is set, partner has a self sufficient holding, slam interest and asks partner to cue.
I'm not sure how your SJS works.

If I was bidding this with SJS partner, he likes to show all cues after the SJS, so ♦ can be made on shortage. Non standard, I don't really have a strong opinion on this.

In either auction, if you ask for Aces partner will show 1

It's reasonably standard in cue bidding auctions that your first cue in partner's suit is not a shortage. This means partner evaluates his AQxxx correctly. It's much better to bid 3♥ then bid 4♦ later if you get the chance. The corollary is that partner with a bad diamond suit can't sign off because you might still have a singleton.

[jillybean]

 Cyberyeti, on 2023-April-14, 13:55, said:

It's reasonably standard in cue bidding auctions that your first cue in partner's suit is not a shortage. This means partner evaluates his AQxxx correctly. It's much better to bid 3♥ then bid 4♦ later if you get the chance. The corollary is that partner with a bad diamond suit can't sign off because you might still have a singleton.

Yes

[jillybean]

 smerriman, on 2023-April-14, 13:51, said:

@jillybean - ah, your first S meant strong, not Soloway. I have no idea how they work then, I thought they died out years ago when everyone moved onto Soloway.

That's rather presumptuous! One of the attractions of this game is the many ways one can play it.

[mikeh]

 smerriman, on 2023-April-14, 13:51, said:

@mike: OK, that sounds better. So if partner has a singleton spade, they raise to 4♠, and we can keycard or cuebid from there. If partner bids 4 of a minor, the only bid is 4♠? And 3nt from partner, having already denied a stopper, shows.. a partial stopper?

@jillybean - ah, your first S meant strong, not Soloway. I have no idea how they work then, I thought they died out years ago when everyone moved onto Soloway.

Why on earth would we be content to play 4S after he bids 4m?

What do you think he holds?

Void xx AQxxxx Kxxxx? No. He opens that crap and he’s asking for trouble

Void Jxx AKxxx KJxxx. That would be possible, though I’d expect a 3N bid over 3S.

In any case, given that we are about 50% likely to have no trump losers opposite a void, and he has denied a heart stopper, I bid a simple 6S. Anyone who thinks they should bid 4S needs to learn to visualize.

Btw, it’s far from clear that 3C denies a stopper. void Kx AKxxxx KQxxx shouldn’t, imo, bid 2N over 2H. Bridge is a conversation, in most constructive bidding scenarios, and we owe it to partner to describe our hand. 2N would be something like x Kxx AQxxx KJxx.

If you bid my 0=2=6=5 hand in the same way that you’d bid my 1=3=5=4 hand, you are not going to do well opposite AQxxx Axx Qx Axx. 7C of either minor is decent and 6m very good indeed if you are 0=2=6=5 but north has a trivial 3N after your 2N.

[smerriman]

 jillybean, on 2023-April-14, 14:00, said:

That's rather presumptuous! One of the attractions of this game is the many ways one can play it.

Sorry, I more meant in the sense that there are some very old fashioned bids that you would be very surprised to hear played today - like strong 2s - because more modern methods - weak 2s - usurped them. I had mentally placed strong [non-Soloway] jump shifts into the same category, and wasn't aware anyone still played them.

[Cyberyeti]

 smerriman, on 2023-April-14, 13:51, said:

@jillybean - ah, your first S meant strong, not Soloway. I have no idea how they work then, I thought they died out years ago when everyone moved onto Soloway.

Not everybody moved on to Soloway, we play fit or single suited rock crusher, not the balanced type and the single suited really big because we use the cheap rebids with the more common fit type. We also play non standard responses.

[mikeh]

 smerriman, on 2023-April-14, 13:51, said:

@mike: OK, that sounds better. So if partner has a singleton spade, they raise to 4♠, and we can keycard or cuebid from there. If partner bids 4 of a minor, the only bid is 4♠? And 3nt from partner, having already denied a stopper, shows.. a partial stopper?

@jillybean - ah, your first S meant strong, not Soloway. I have no idea how they work then, I thought they died out years ago when everyone moved onto Soloway.

Lol

Everyone moved onto Soloway? I and countless others must have missed the memo. I thought that the Soloway Jump Shift was a definite upgrade over the then standard strong jumpshift, but I and many others had already found what we considered to be better treatments than any strong jump shift.

Of course, the methods I then thought better…I don’t play them anymore. Bidding evolves.

[smerriman]

 mikeh, on 2023-April-14, 14:06, said:

Why on earth would we be content to play 4S after he bids 4m?

..
What do you think he holds?

Anyone who thinks they should bid 4S needs to learn to visualize.

I feel like you haven't been reading my posts very closely. I said at the very beginning that without Soloway, I would continue with 3♠, and end up having no choice but to leap to 6♠. All of the comments after that suggested that by going slowly, you'd be able to bid more constructively, so I assumed this meant people were advising not leaping to 6♠, and was looking for what the alternative was.

 mikeh, on 2023-April-14, 14:09, said:

Everyone moved onto Soloway? I and countless others must have missed the memo. I thought that the Soloway Jump Shift was a definite upgrade over the then standard strong jumpshift, but I and many others had already found what we considered to be better treatments than any strong jump shift.

I meant, of course, if continuing to play some form of strong shift, that said shift moved on from the old fashioned strong to Soloway, being considered an upgrade exactly as you just said yourself. To the extent that it changed what the acronym SJS usually stands for. But it seems from Cyberyeti / jillybean that I was wrong.

[jillybean]

---

Here's the full hand, everyone played in a safe, boring 6♠, we played in 7NT=
Now I'm going to discuss with my other partner how we would, should bid it.

[nullve]

 smerriman, on 2023-April-14, 13:29, said:

Maybe this is what nullve was getting at but it wasn't clear what 3nt meant - something artificial?

No, natural, denying doubleton support.

[Cyberyeti]

 jillybean, on 2023-April-14, 14:11, said:

---

Here's the full hand, everyone played in a safe, boring 6♠, we played in 7NT=
Now I'm going to discuss with my other partner how we would, should bid it.

Our auction:

1♦-2♠
3♣(nat, at least xx/Q♠)-3♠(single suited type, suit setting please cue)
4♣-4♥
4♠-4N
5♦(1/4)-6♦(shortage given the failure to bid 4♦)
6♥-7♠

It's just possible partner has a stiff small heart and 2 spades, but they would need to hold a very precise hand (Jx, x, AQxxxx, Kxxx) for the grand not to be really good and it's not terrible opposite that

[mikeh]

1D 1S
2C 2H
3C 3S
4H. 4H has to be a cue in support of spades. There is no other possible meaning. Moreover I think it reasonable to infer either 2=1=5=5 or if 1=2=5=5 then significant extras (at least a king more than minimum.,.minimums bid 4S)

Now keycard and 5N, in case partner has KQJxx in clubs and can bid 7N

After his 6C specific king response, 6H looks for something extra and south has it (as tge old saying goes) in spades….I’d bid 7H if feeling that partner is in the zone but otherwise 7S.

[AL78]

Doesn't 7NT depend on a finesse (I can only count 12 top tricks)?

[nullve]

 mikeh, on 2023-April-14, 15:50, said:

1D 1S
2C 2H
3C 3S
4H. 4H has to be a cue in support of spades. There is no other possible meaning.

I agree with this.

 mikeh, on 2023-April-14, 13:44, said:

3S, after FSF, would not show a ‘self sufficient suit’.

It WOULD show a suit which should be adequate as trump opposite x

This begs the question: Are you always able to find a 6-2 spade fit after

1♦-1♠
2♣-2♥
3♣

?

[mikeh]

 nullve, on 2023-April-14, 18:09, said:

I agree with this.


This begs the question: Are you always able to find a 6-2 spade fit after

1♦-1♠
2♣-2♥
3♣

?

No and I don’t care

You want to play 3N with at most one heart stopper and a telegraphed heart lead? Or 4S on a 6-1 where, if they lead hearts we can force them to break trump for us (almost certainly to our benefit) or allow a heart ruff in dummy…and, of course, partner has to have something…nothing in spades (beyond an unlikely but helpful J) and nothing in hearts..over 3S I’d expect 3N on Qx in hearts much of the time.

Or would you rather play a 5-2 minor suit game?

Obviously we’re not discussing this actual hand, but a more mundane one in which we have 6 good but not solid spades, game values, and at most one heart stopper and no good minor fit. That’s when many non-experts default to 3N, while (depending on what the hand looks like) stronger players opt for 4S.

[mikeh]

 AL78, on 2023-April-14, 16:14, said:

Doesn't 7NT depend on a finesse (I can only count 12 top tricks)?

Not quite

If north is playing and gets a diamond lead, it’s on a finesse and one has to guess which one.

If south is playing or if north gets a non diamond lead, declarer has slight additional chances

If nothing else, he can play for Qx of clubs and, that failing, resort to the diamond hook. The club dropping is actually a significant factor, bringing your chances to a little over 60%. Not a contract one wants to be in.

[the hog]

"I totally disagree with your interpretation after 4SF" Of course you do, else you would not be true to type.
"Our bidding" - ho hum, here we go again. Seriously who cares? My bidding? 1D - 7S, because like you I have seen the hands.

[Cyberyeti]

 the hog, on 2023-April-14, 21:54, said:

"I totally disagree with your interpretation after 4SF" Of course you do, else you would not be true to type.
"Our bidding" - ho hum, here we go again. Seriously who cares? My bidding? 1D - 7S, because like you I have seen the hands.

This is a totally routine auction for us, I pointed out where it can go wrong.

I note you didn't answer how you bid a potentially slamgoing hand with a long bad spade suit Kxxxxxx, AKQ, Ax, Q or something of the sort, 4th suit and repeat spades seems normal.