[jillybean]

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Playing vanilla standard, not 2/1

[Cyberyeti]

wtp 1♠

[jillybean]

No problem, yet

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[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2024-November-01, 06:41, said:

No problem, yet

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3♣ 4SF GF, you need to know whether 3♦ or 3♥ is your "nothing else to say" bid

[jillybean]

4SGF

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This is where I stall. Partner has shown a minimum hand, it's probably a 12-14nt hand.
We have an 8 card heart fit but where is our source of tricks?

[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2024-November-01, 06:45, said:

4SGF

---

This is where I stall. Partner has shown a minimum hand, we have an 8 card heart fit but where is our source of tricks?

Is that the "nothing else to say" bid or would that have been 3♦ ?

If partner has ♠KQ and anaemic suits of his own, I suspect I'm going off at the 5 level playing N/B stuff, I have a chance playing my methods.

[jillybean]

This is N/B territory, 3♦ could be 5-5 in the reds?

Without any more methods, you signoff in 4H?

[Stephen Tu]

This kind of issue is why a fair number of expert players have moved to solutions of either:

a: respond 2c to begin with (opener will rebid 2s with 4 so you won't miss fit there)

b: use 2s as 4th suit F instead of 3c (use 1h-2s weak jump shift with less than invite & 6+ spades, more European style wjs than American ultra-weak)

[mike777]

As an intermediate player
I would have started with 2c
To hopefully simplify auction.

[Cyberyeti]

Stephen Tu, on 2024-November-01, 07:53, said:

This kind of issue is why a fair number of expert players have moved to solutions of either:

a: respond 2c to begin with (opener will rebid 2s with 4 so you won't miss fit there)

b: use 2s as 4th suit F instead of 3c (use 1h-2s weak jump shift with less than invite & 6+ spades, more European style wjs than American ultra-weak)

a: Opener will not rebid 2♠ with 4, you're not playing 2/1 so that's a full reverse

b: we play 2s as constructive NF, so better than a weak jump, but NF

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2024-November-01, 08:15, said:

As an intermediate player
I would have started with 2c
To hopefully simplify auction.

You are an advanced intermediate I am beginning to enjoy 2C* gf any but partner needs to be on the same wavelength.

This is a hand from the game I co-direct and get together with some players before the next game to talk about these boards.
I know, I should NOT be trying to guide beginners to become better bidders.

This is how I suspect the auction went:

2-Q

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6♥= double dummy

Those who did bid the slam were 6♥ -2 or 6♥ -1

[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2024-November-01, 07:19, said:

This is N/B territory, 3♦ could be 5-5 in the reds?

Without any more methods, you signoff in 4H?

It could be, but the question is do you want to bundle nothing more to say in with 5-5s or 6-4s. Different people teach this different ways.

As I said, without methods I probably investigate slam and take the consequences.

4♠ kickback (3♠ would be forcing so 4♠ is not needed for hands with spades) and I pass 4N if partner has zero would be my normal action.

It's not difficult to make if the first heart play is to the K, once you've done that, it all falls into place.

[mw64ahw]

Stephen Tu, on 2024-November-01, 07:53, said:

This kind of issue is why a fair number of expert players have moved to solutions of either:

a: respond 2c to begin with (opener will rebid 2s with 4 so you won't miss fit there)

b: use 2s as 4th suit F instead of 3c (use 1h-2s weak jump shift with less than invite & 6+ spades, more European style wjs than American ultra-weak)

c) 2♦ as 3/4♥ constructive, GFish 3♥, 5+♦ or both
opener will break the transfer with a game try in ♥ thus setting up a potential slam try. ♠ remain resolvable.
.

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2024-November-01, 08:36, said:

It could be, but the question is do you want to bundle nothing more to say in with 5-5s or 6-4s. Different people teach this different ways.

As I said, without methods I probably investigate slam and take the consequences.

4♠ kickback (3♠ would be forcing so 4♠ is not needed for hands with spades) and I pass 4N if partner has zero would be my normal action.

Yep, I don't think we are there yet. Bidding is generally "natural".

[Gerardo]

Direct 2♣ is not GF, but what are:
1♥ 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ ?
1♥ 2♣ 2♦ 3♥ ?

[Cyberyeti]

Gerardo, on 2024-November-01, 09:45, said:

Direct 2♣ is not GF, but what are:
1♥ 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ ?
1♥ 2♣ 2♦ 3♥ ?

also 1♥-2♣-2♦-2♠-3♣-3♥

[apollo1201]

Gerardo, on 2024-November-01, 09:45, said:

Direct 2♣ is not GF, but what are:
1♥ 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ ?
1♥ 2♣ 2♦ 3♥ ?

Over a non GF 2C, the 1st sequence is about 11 points, 2-cd H and no S stop. The 2nd should be forcing like the hand here. But invitational with a C suit is probably what NB learn?

Over a GF 2C, the 1sr sequence is string but still undecided. Could be bad C and a regular hand, could be a so-so fit (Jxx or less). The 2nd hand is clearly SI and really wants opener to collaborate further.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2024-November-01, 06:45, said:

4SGF

---

This is where I stall. Partner has shown a minimum hand, it's probably a 12-14nt hand.
We have an 8 card heart fit but where is our source of tricks?

Given that you are playing vanilla 2/1 and being based in N/A my take is, that

#1 3H says nothing about min/max, 3C was game forcing
#2 3H should show a 6th heart, but this is up for discussing
#3 4C should be a cue, agreeing hearts, with a strong 2-suited hand, you would hvae jumped
directly to 4C

And keep in mind, newbie stuff is ok, but FSF seq. are problematic, to a certain extend FSF
is the most complicate convention a newbie learns, gets in touch.
And certain areas, dont showup lots of time, i.e. getting those auction "wrong", meaning the
partnership being on different pages is not unusal even for stronger partnerships.