[blackshoe]

I haven't re-read this whole thread, so maybe someone already mentioned it and I've forgotten, but the way I learned Precision, when the opponents interfere, the simple thing is that you have two new calls you can make, and one or perhaps more calls you can't make. So when I played Precision, after 1♣-1♦, pass would show 0-4 HCP and X 5-7 HCP. After 1♣-1♥, pass would show 0-7 HCP, and X would show whatever 1♥ would have shown if second seat had passed. That seemed to work well for my partner and I back then. Of course, the higher the interference, the more difficulty you will have, so at some point:ph34r:

[Hilver]

The way I respond after OH opening 1♣ and RHO making a takeout double:
pass: 0-4 HCP
1D: no 5-card major, 5-8 HCP
1H/S/2C/2D: 5-8 HCP 5-card
2H/S/3C/3D: 5-8 HCP, 6+-card
redouble: 9+ HCP

1♣ -(1D/H/S) - ?:
pass: 0-4 HCP
New suit without jump: 5-8 HCP, 5 card
New suit with jump: 6+card, 5-8 HCP
1NT: 6-8 HCP, stopper, no 5-card
2NT: 9-11 HCP, stopper, no 5-card
3NT: 12-14 HCP, stopper, no 5 card
double: 5-8 HCP without 5+card or 9+ HCP (several possibilities, i.e. strong one suited hand)
Cuebid: singleton or renonce in overcallers suit and a two or 3 suited hand

After 1♣-(2C/D/H/S) - ?:
almost the same structure as after 1♣ - (1D/H/S)

After 1♣ - 2NT or higher overcall:
double: punishment
suit: GF
NT: to play

Hilver

[Gerben42]

Unless you play relay Precision I think you should play 1♣ Dbl 1♦ as natural. The big gain is that you save a level when you have ♦.

For example

XX = 0 - 4
Pass = 5 - 7
1♦♥♠NT, 2♣ = natural GF
2♦ = Weak two in a major
2M, 2NT = 2-suiter

Also if interference is low enough (1♠ or lower) it is better to play Pass as the stronger bid of Pass and Dbl.

[helene_t]

Need some simple meta agreements. Over Landy-(x)-?,
pass= I have the suit bid
xx= nothing to say
what would otherwise be relay=natural
Could play the same over Stayman, transfers, FSF, 1♣, 1♣-(p)-1♦, and the 2♦ opening.

The current definitions against overcalls over 1♣ are
jump=invitational 1-suiter as without interference
nojump=GF natural as without interference
pass=weak catchall, as 1♦ without interference
dbl=the bonus added by the overcall, something-to-say catchall

Then one can discuss where the border between pass, x and jump goes. If the xx-xx-Qxxxxx-Axx should pass, dbl or bid 3♦, but at least the basic philosophy is not so difficult to remember, and when responder makes a natural GF response, you can proceed as if the overcall had not been there.

[Mbodell]

The other thing I should mention is the really annoying preemption to straighten out is how you bid after 1♣-P-1♦-2y. When you know nothing about the shape of any of your hands other than 1 is strong (and acting first) and the other is weak and in the balancing seat then you need to have some understandings of what bids mean in this situation.

[jtfanclub]

Mbodell, on Feb 17 2008, 07:34 PM, said:

I think it is smarter to reverse pass/dbl and have pass show 5-7 or penalty double or some game forcing hands and have pass near force dbl from the 1♣ bidder. Then direct dbl can be 0-4 and direct suits can be game forcing (of the type not shown by p -> dbl -> suit).

The big advantage of the standard way is....

1♣ 1♥ -P- 2♥
-P- -P- -X-

X is clearly penalty, since with 0-4 without a penalty you'd just pass.

1♣ 1♥ -X- 2♥
-P- -P- -X-

X is clearly takeout, since with a penalty oriented hand you'd have passed the first time.

There are hands where with your system you'd wish that you had a penalty X, and hands where you'd wish you had a takeout X.

As for passing out when partner has a penalty, yes, it's possible. But at the one level, 1♣ 1♥ P P, opener should always rebid anyways, even if partner might have 0-4.

As for using non-jumps of suits to show non-GF hands, well, I don't need it at my level, and we'll see if I ever need it at any level.

And as for Helene's suggestions, well, I don't pay much attention to what suits the opponents claim to have. For one thing, they lie about their system. I haven't gotten an adjustment for it yet, it seems to just be an accepted practice against Precision. So the only bid where it makes a difference is no-trump: a minimum NT bid shows stoppers in the 'shown' suits, X includes balanced strong hands without stoppers in the shown suits.

[Hilver]

Mbodell, on Feb 18 2008, 08:39 AM, said:

The other thing I should mention is the really annoying preemption to straighten out is how you bid after 1♣-P-1♦-2y.  When you know nothing about the shape of any of your hands other than 1 is strong (and acting first) and the other is weak and in the balancing seat then you need to have some understandings of what bids mean in this situation.

In my version of Precision - Revison Club Modified - that's not a major problem.
The 1♣-opener has either a strong balanced hand - 21+ HCP - or an unbalanced hand.
I know some hate it, but the opening bid of 1NT is 16-18 HCP and the opening bid of 2NT is 19-20 HCP.

So with a minimum hand opener will pass after 1♣-(pass)-1♦-(2Y) with a 16-18 unbalanced hand and bid something else with a strong balanced hand or an 19+ unbalanced hand.
1♦ in Revision can be weak, strong or intermediate. It denies several weak hands with 0-7 HCP and 5+cards in a suit.

[jtfanclub]

Mbodell, on Feb 18 2008, 08:39 AM, said:

The other thing I should mention is the really annoying preemption to straighten out is how you bid after 1♣-P-1♦-2y. When you know nothing about the shape of any of your hands other than 1 is strong (and acting first) and the other is weak and in the balancing seat then you need to have some understandings of what bids mean in this situation.

I won't say I like Hilver's sytem, but I think his response structure is pretty standard:

Pass= 16-18 Balanced*
X= 19+ Balanced*
New suit= unbalanced and not forcing
Jump in new suit= unbalanced and forcing
minimum NT= Double stop in opponent's suit but no length, balanced.
3NT= 9 tricks, to play, frequently with a long minor.

*very, very heavily adjusted. There's lots of 18 counts I double with if the bid on my right increases the value of my hand. There are 19 counts with 3 small in their suit I'll pass with.

Opener should never bid a suit with a balanced hand, until responder has had a chance to show a suit.

[PrecisionL]

helene_t, on Jul 15 2005, 06:50 AM, said:

Another poll about Basic Precision, not as you play it with your regular p but as you would play it with a pick-up p.

MPs or IMPs?

At Match Point Pairs:

X = G.F. and bids = 5-7 and 5-card suit or better where partials are just as important as games and slams.


At IMPs, reverse the above where games and slams are more important.

Larry

[PrecisionL]

Forexample: ColoursFirst DESIGN: [LPL: 1♠ overcall is an ideal example!] from Roy Hughes Book

1♣ (1♠): Pass Weak or length in ♠(Trap pass)

X Values with or without a stopper = balanced

1NT Transfer to ♣ 5⁺ hcp Opener accepts if min& xx

2♣ Transfer to ♦ 5⁺ hcp Opener accepts if min & xx2♦ Transfer to ♥ 5⁺ hcp Opener accepts if min& xx

2♥ 1=4=4=4

2♠ Minors

2NT ♣ + ♥

3♣ ♦ + ♥

3♦ GF ♣

3♥ GF ♣ + 0-1♠1-Usplinter

3♠ AKQxxx+ any suit

3NT Minimum GF with all strength in opp suit

"These are just ideas, which must look rather arbitrary. What is needed is to take the entire partnership methods, evaluate where transfer technology is appropriate and then apply it in a consistent way."

SYSTEMS on over X and 1♦ Interference.

[foobar]

PrecisionL, on 2022-February-10, 08:22, said:

Forexample: ColoursFirst DESIGN: [LPL: 1♠ overcall is an ideal example!] from Roy Hughes Book

1♣ (1♠): Pass Weak or length in ♠(Trap pass)

X Values with or without a stopper = balanced

1NT Transfer to ♣ 5⁺ hcp Opener accepts if min& xx

2♣ Transfer to ♦ 5⁺ hcp Opener accepts if min & xx2♦ Transfer to ♥ 5⁺ hcp Opener accepts if min& xx

2♥ 1=4=4=4

2♠ Minors

2NT ♣ + ♥

3♣ ♦ + ♥

3♦ GF ♣

3♥ GF ♣ + 0-1♠1-Usplinter

3♠ AKQxxx+ any suit

3NT Minimum GF with all strength in opp suit

"These are just ideas, which must look rather arbitrary. What is needed is to take the entire partnership methods, evaluate where transfer technology is appropriate and then apply it in a consistent way."

SYSTEMS on over X and 1♦ Interference.

Seems like there's no way to establish a cheap GF with a balanced hand and stopper in their suit, short of bidding 3N? Perhaps, it's better to give up on the 1N transfer to clubs?

[pilun]

Chamaco, on 2005-July-18, 10:42, said:

Freebids (including 1NT) nonforcing at level 1/2, forcing at level 3.

DBL = either 5-7, for takeout (major oriented) OR generic GF, usually NOT single suited (would jump) NOR 2-suiter (would bid "Michaels" cue OR "Unusual 2NT")

That's more or less what we do, though we use transfers in some auctions.

After 1♣ - (2♦)

double takeout, 2NT natural non-forcing (VERY few would play this 2NT as non-forcing)
2M non-forcing, 3x GF, usually 6+. For 2♥, responder might have

♠xxx ♥KQxxx ♦xx ♣xxx

I sort of picture opener with 16-18 balanced. After 1NT (16-18) - (2♦ natural) - 2♥ seems mainstream.