[harikannan]

I hold:

AT
ATxx
KJTX
AKT

and open 2NT. Opponents are silent. Partner bids 3d transfer. I bid 3h and partner bids 4NT quantitative.

What would be 5h by me now? Thanks.

[Cyberyeti]

What is your 2N range ?

Do you have any agreement about what bidding something other than 3♥ means ? we would break the transfer here

How people respond to a quantitative 4N varies, some reply aces if accepting, others will bid a 5 card suit of their own or show support if not sure whether to accept

[harikannan]

Our 2nt is 20-21 hcp. 5 of trumps and 5nt -- can the former be used as preference to play in 5h and latter as pick a slam?

[bif2]

Me and my partner are playing that on:
2NT - 3♦
3♥ - 4NT
if you have a fit (3 hearts or more) you should answer it as RKCB, but if you don't have a fit it's quantitative.
So 5♥ in this case is (in my and my partner's bidding) 2/5 key cards, without the ♥Q.

[Cyberyeti]

harikannan, on 2025-April-20, 04:55, said:

Our 2nt is 20-21 hcp. 5 of trumps and 5nt -- can the former be used as preference to play in 5h and latter as pick a slam?

5♥ would be invitational and tell partner to evaluate a heart slam not a NT slam if playing natural-ish. If you want to get more complicated, you could bid 5♦ saying "evaluate your diamond holding, particularly minor honours" without being clear whether you're aiming at hearts or NT so partner knows Qx(x) is more than full value.

Second question - What do you evaluate your hand at ? I know it's a 19 count, but I think it's worth closer to 21 than 20, so you possibly should be accepting anyway.

[pescetom]

I agree with cyberyeti that it looks like a maximum anyway, you even have 4 card fit too: so happy problem.

I would have bid 3S as a control showing superaccept, but now I would bid 5NT pick a slam.

[I like cyberyeti's idea of 5D as a probe for diamonds honours, but for us it is invitational to 6D and can be pulled to 5NT but not 5H].

[mike777]

harikannan, on 2025-April-20, 04:10, said:

I hold:

AT
ATxx
KJTX
AKT

and open 2NT. Opponents are silent. Partner bids 3d transfer. I bid 3h and partner bids 4NT quantitative.

What would be 5h by me now? Thanks.

5H is an excellent example of something bad called information leakage. You want to avoid information leakage.

"author: Krzysztof Martens
The word "camouflage" comes from French and means camouflaging, masking, concealment, to cover tracks. In my opinion, in the 21st century it will be one of the main postulates in the modern bridge theory."

In other words do not ever bid 5H. Your options over 4nt are pass, or 6H or 6NT.

[harikannan]

mike777, on 2025-April-20, 06:55, said:

5H is an excellent example of something bad called information leakage. You want to avoid information leakage.

Can you be more specific about what information it leaks to our detriment?

[harikannan]

bif2, on 2025-April-20, 05:50, said:

if you have a fit (3 hearts or more) you should answer it as RKCB, but if you don't have a fit it's quantitative.
So 5♥ in this case is (in my and my partner's bidding) 2/5 key cards, without the ♥Q.

Interesting. So partner can choose between 6h and 6nt, right?

[apollo1201]

I would have bid 4H over the transfer so would not have this issue.

I guess 5H means I do not want to play slam but somehow I feel it is a better contract than 4NT. Since you do not seem to have either confirmed or denied a fit by bidding 3H. Just accepting the transfer with 2, 3 or 4 cards is not a good method anyway.

[mike777]

harikannan, on 2025-April-20, 08:39, said:

Can you be more specific about what information it leaks to our detriment?

For more specific information, please read his book on the subject of information leakage. It has been a very influential book at the top levels of bridge and it is working its way down to the intermediate levels.

We all give out way too much information to the opponents about our hand that helps them come up with the killing opening lead or killing defense.

On the other topic, as far as the discussion of super accepting over 2nt opening bids, that is still a controversial subject. I am unclear if there is a consensus on what approach is thought best.

[mikeh]

mike777, on 2025-April-20, 06:55, said:

5H is an excellent example of something bad called information leakage. You want to avoid information leakage.

"author: Krzysztof Martens
The word "camouflage" comes from French and means camouflaging, masking, concealment, to cover tracks. In my opinion, in the 21st century it will be one of the main postulates in the modern bridge theory."

In other words do not ever bid 5H. Your options over 4nt are pass, or 6H or 6NT.

This is, imo, unwise (edited to remove some unkind words, undeserved)

Partner went out of his way to show 5 hearts. That says he has interest in hearts if you have a good fit. Which you do. It’s extraordinarily unlikely (assuming he has his bid) for 4N to be better than 5H. It’s not probable but certainly possible that 4N fails when 5H makes, but very likely that the reverse is true, given your hand

Qx KJxxx Axx Qxx has s a very heavy 4N and 4N can definitely fail on a spade lead and losing a heart trick. 5H is virtually bullet-proof…certainly will make in many layouts where 4N fails.

Your argument is akin to stating that after 1N 2D 2H 2N, opener is permitted only pass, 3N or 4H because 3H ‘leaks information’.

I’m a big believer in not leaking info, but this isn’t an action where concealment is as or more important than bidding accurately.

Camouflage is fine provided that it doesn’t come at the expense of choosing the best contract. Here, if we were liking hearts, as we do, but rejecting slam, as we might (but I wouldn’t on this hand but might well on others with good hearts) we HAVE to be allowed to bid 5H.

Give me say Ax AJ10x KQJx KQx my heart Jack is very often a wasted value and I have no semblance of a second spade stop and I am minimum (even though I’ve more hcp than the OP hand) so I’d want to be in 5H opposite Qx KQxxx xxx Ax. Good luck in 4 N if they lead though the Q of spades and the king is offside. Ok, that’s less than 50% but where’s the upside.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-April-20, 04:34, said:

What is your 2N range ?

Do you have any agreement about what bidding something other than 3♥ means ? we would break the transfer here

How people respond to a quantitative 4N varies, some reply aces if accepting, others will bid a 5 card suit of their own or show support if not sure whether to accept

In purely quantitative auctions, such as 2N 4N, it makes sense to show aces. Some 45 years ago I accepted an invite to grand…2N 5N….and was down one when the 4 hcp we lacked were in the form of the spade ace. My older LHO was ‘kind’ enough to give me a lesson at the table (despite the fact that I’d won all three events to that point and would go on to win the other two, ncluding the one we were playing). I enjoyed that his teammates had the same auction but got doubled so we won 3 imps. However, despite the lesson rankling, I paid attention to it.

But that isn’t this situation. Partner is not merely asking you to make a choice of level, hes also asking for a choice of strain and hearts is one of those on offer

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2025-April-20, 13:34, said:

In purely quantitative auctions, such as 2N 4N, it makes sense to show aces. Some 45 years ago I accepted an invite to grand…2N 5N….and was down one when the 4 hcp we lacked were in the form of the spade ace. My older LHO was ‘kind’ enough to give me a lesson at the table (despite the fact that I’d won all three events to that point and would go on to win the other two, ncluding the one we were playing). I enjoyed that his teammates had the same auction but got doubled so we won 3 imps. However, despite the lesson rankling, I paid attention to it.

But that isn’t this situation. Partner is not merely asking you to make a choice of level, hes also asking for a choice of strain and hearts is one of those on offer

Many beginners prefer to start with a rule like "We respond to quant 4N with aces" and not differentiate niceties like this, that comes later.

[fuzzyquack]

Without a firm agreement what's 5♥ here, it looks like a Toucan two-way bid, i.e. if we are to be in slam, I don't want to be responsible. Partner may guess right or wrong.

[harikannan]

Thanks to all who have given their constructive views / opinion and Mikeh for his customary elucidation.

[bif2]

harikannan, on 2025-April-20, 08:57, said:

Interesting. So partner can choose between 6h and 6nt, right?

Right

[mikeh]

bif2, on 2025-April-22, 11:12, said:

Right

Wrong

[mikl_plkcc]

A sign off, showing a real fit (not a doubleton) and a minimum, similar to all other Jacoby transfer auctions, asking for a choice between 4NT, 5♥, 6♥ and 6NT.

mikeh, on 2025-April-20, 13:34, said:

In purely quantitative auctions, such as 2N 4N, it makes sense to show aces. Some 45 years ago I accepted an invite to grand…2N 5N….and was down one when the 4 hcp we lacked were in the form of the spade ace. My older LHO was ‘kind’ enough to give me a lesson at the table (despite the fact that I’d won all three events to that point and would go on to win the other two, ncluding the one we were playing). I enjoyed that his teammates had the same auction but got doubled so we won 3 imps. However, despite the lesson rankling, I paid attention to it.

But that isn’t this situation. Partner is not merely asking you to make a choice of level, hes also asking for a choice of strain and hearts is one of those on offer

The math must be wrong as it is impossible to miss an ace with 37 HCPs combined. When 2NT is 20-21, it is a blind 6NT with 20 and 7NT with 21.