[Huibertus]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-June-03, 08:07, said:

Even when not playing inv. minor raises, you could bid 2D.

If p has the strong NT, he may find another bid, the single raise does not deny 9HCP.

Given that you are playing MP, missing a close game is not the end of the world, 50% means,
50% of the time it makes, and 50% of the time it goes down.

9HCP is the absolute maximum for a non inverted 2♦. Partner will pass with most 15-16 HCP expecting 6/7/8 HCP more often.

[Huibertus]

jillybean, on 2025-June-03, 09:48, said:

---

*12-14nt
It looks doomed, doesn't it?
It's fuzzy at best knowing if inverted minors are on by passed hand, (another good detail to discuss with partner) 3D is the bid.

However, at our table, North bid 2nt , South raised to game and of course we get a spade lead.

So the hand had nothing to do with what to bid for a good result and everything with the luck of the east hand being east and not west and the west hand being west and not east.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2025-June-03, 09:48, said:

However, at our table, North bid 2nt , South raised to game and of course we get a spade lead.

We would have played 3NT in South and received a hearts lead. In partial consolation, some club opponents could be trusted to block the suit

[pescetom]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-June-03, 09:35, said:

The 5th diamond I have shown

Is that a consequence of some convention you play and did not mention?
As we play I have only shown 4+ (our 1D opening is 4+, but I would expect 4+ even if we opened 5+ or 3 only with 4=4=3=2).

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2025-June-03, 11:14, said:

Is that a consequence of some convention you play and did not mention?
As we play I have only shown 4+ (our 1D opening is 4+, but I would expect 4+ even if we opened 5+ or 3 only with 4=4=3=2).

You could be right, I usually play 1D as 3+ so a raise is basically 5+, you are bypassing 1NT.

[pescetom]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-June-03, 11:53, said:

You could be right, I usually play 1D as 3+ so a raise is basically 5+, you are bypassing 1NT.

I've never played 3+ except when forced to do so by the robot, but I think that in that case it can only be 3 with 4=4=3=2 and then all I have read suggests treating it as effectively 4+, which makes sense to me.
If you are playing that awkward style where one chooses the "better" minor 3-3 then I can see that raising to 3D on 4 starts to look hazardous.

[jillybean]

akwoo, on 2025-June-03, 10:06, said:

Particularly when playing a weak NT, I prefer to ignore stopper seeking after an inverted minor bid. Why tell the opponents what to lead?

So, in my weak NT partnerships, the bidding goes 1D-2D-3N (3N shows 15-16 balanced).

If you have the agreement 2D is inverted by passed hand, it's a great auction.
I have finally shed the "nt shows stoppers in all suits" law and rarely ask.

[jillybean]

paulg, on 2025-June-03, 01:20, said:

When I moved to Scotland there was a vibrant league of eight competition based around Edinburgh, where each team would have a squad of up to 14 players. One team captain was particularly good at finding out when new talent arrived into the area, so he built a team based primarily on the strength of the players rather than partnerships. He was also an NFL fan, like me, so his team was the 49ers and the team all played 49ers Standard.

You can see the system at https://bit.ly/3Zdqm6h

The pandemic put paid to the league but it is still a useful system for a random partnership to play.

The Scots have an interesting twist to the American Bergen and Jacoby.
It looks like 2nt is for solid, serious slam bidding but where do the 13-14hcp hands with shortage go?

Bergen Raises 3M=3-6, 3♦=6-9, 3♣= 9-12, all 4 card support.
2NT= 15+, four-card raise, demands shortage response; 4 major = min, no shortage.
3NT= 12-15 four-card support, no shortage

And Leb - why the switch?

Lebensohl FASS (fast arrival shows stop).

[paulg]

paulg, on 2025-June-03, 01:20, said:

You can see the system at https://bit.ly/3Zdqm6h

jillybean, on 2025-June-03, 16:42, said:

The Scots have an interesting twist to the American Bergen and Jacoby.
It looks like 2nt is for solid, serious slam bidding but where do the 13-14hcp hands with shortage go?

Bergen Raises 3M=3-6, 3♦=6-9, 3♣= 9-12, all 4 card support.
2NT= 15+, four-card raise, demands shortage response; 4 major = min, no shortage.
3NT= 12-15 four-card support, no shortage

And Leb - why the switch?

Lebensohl FASS (fast arrival shows stop).

The league was teams of eight with aggregate scoring, so a real premium for bidding games and slams. I suspect Bergen was still a fad when the system was created, it is not something I play any more if I can help it and hands with shortage and 13-14 points take a different route

Lebensohl FASS has always been the default in the UK. I suspect that this was the version that we first read about in the magazines here in the 1980s as it matters less if you forget the convention and just bid 3NT with a stop.

[Cyberyeti]

Huibertus, on 2025-June-03, 11:07, said:

So the hand had nothing to do with what to bid for a good result and everything with the luck of the east hand being east and not west and the west hand being west and not east.

Results merchants will say they should have bid a revolting 2N to get the spade lead