[catatonic]

attempting [!] to play sayc here with a partner who described him[her]self as advanced or expert , I opened 1NT on a minimum including 4 hearts and Kx of spades
next hand overcalled 2S , pt bid 3H , pass

any good player I have played with plays x as penalty after the overcall of 1NT , 2NT as a force , any suit as competitive only

not fancying my effective 12 count I passed ; pt now became abusive holding AQx of spades and Qxxxx of hearts in an opening hand ; as a sensible discussion was not possible , I merely left the table

so how do good players generally play these sequences ? am I out of step ?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

different player play different methods.

- Playing standard, X is penalty, although neg. X is quite
common and probably best, in case one plays a strong NT.

- A new suit on the 3 level, is usually forcing, the weaker
hands go through 2NT. But strong minority plays, that the
stronger hands go through 2 NT (Reverse Lebensohl).
Of course another group of experts plays Rubensohl, i.e.
2NT would be a transfer to clubs, .... and if I recall it correctly
transfer in their suit is stayman.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: For what's it worth, I play neg. X and Reverse Lebensohl.

[hrothgar]

One quick comment: You note that you play New Suit as "Competitive Only"

Most experienced partnerships have very different agreements about the meaning of a new suit depending on whether or not they passe 2NT

Case in point: Compare these two auctions:

1N - (2♦) - 2♥

1N - (2♠) - 3♥

In both cases you're making a minimum advance in Hearts, however the definition of the bid is usually quite different.

Moving to your original auction: The methods that you describe ("any good player I have played with plays x as penalty after the overcall of 1NT , 2NT as a force , any suit as competitive only ") don't really match any that I know.

Most players who use 2NT as an artifical advance (Lebensohl or some such) would use 3♥ as natural and forcing, not competitive...

[FrancesHinden]

Quote

any good player I have played with plays x as penalty after the overcall of 1NT , 2NT as a force , any suit as competitive only

Welcome to the diverse world of international bridge.

I cannot tell you what SAYC says, but I can tell you that many people would automatically assume that a new suit at the three level was game forcing (as your partner did).

Oddly enough, in England (where the weak NT is very common) the majority of expert players would use a new suit at the 3-level as game forcing - however, in line with your experience of 'standards', it's actually alertable if it is forcing* and not alertable if not forcing.

*(not many people, even in England, know this)

[Fluffy]

I negative doubles normally, but with not regular partners I can pla penalty doubles for simplicity, but never played 3 level bid as weak though.

IMO you might be out of step

[catatonic]

tks for your comments ; having given up playing the international tournament circuit some 20 years ago , I wondered if I was out of touch with current thinking

imho ,2 things are important after the opening of a sayc type 1NT which defines the openers hand in relatively fine limits

partner can decide to play this as a doubled contract [ forcing pass and compulsory x being a fun method ...try it some time !

it must be possible to compete at the 3 level when the 1NT's pt has a weak single suited hand

and although the methodology for this is a partnership thing , there ought to be a standard in the absence of any agreement , and penalty x and 2NT the only forcing bid seems sensible for the average player to cope with , bid frequency analysis and the logic of not having 2 ways to bid the same hand escaping many!