[kgr]

You play 4th suit GF and 1st and 2nd controls:
1D-1H
1S-2C
2D-2S
3C-3D
3H
You agreed that 2S sets the fit (and because of 2C it is GF).
 
How do you play 3C and 3D here, Do you prefer that 'controls' under 3S are:
- bidding out your distribution
- bidding out your distribution, but bids also promiss some strength in the suit.
- 1st/2nd controls
- 1st/2nd controls but no shortness (King or Ace).
- Anything else?
 
Optional: I did also add a 3H bid in the bidding example. What would that be related to your previous answer?

[Fluffy]

patern out or honnor allocation at the 3 level, you can get controls at the 4 level.

honnor allocation when you are known of the lenght for example:

1♣-1♦
1♥-1♠
1NT-2♥
2♠

would show strong spades such as KQ10

also something like

1♦-1♥
1♠-2♣
2♥-2♠
3♥

would show good hearts

[Phil]

Fluffy, on Nov 14 2009, 07:21 AM, said:

patern out or honnor allocation at the 3 level, you can get controls at the 4 level.

Agree.

Ken Rexford will come in and explain why this approach is all wrong and how cuebidding immediately after suit agreement is better. And then Gwnn will find the thread from a year or two ago that discusses this and how Ken and Fred went back and forth with Justin sympathizing with Ken.

Or not

[aguahombre]

A little different for us. Opener's first action after the 2S fit establishment is Pattern. After that, cues start. 3D is first cue (1st or 2nd contr). 3H is first round control since the shortness is already established. Responder is in control of the auction because only opener is defined.

edit: Just sharing a different view, not trying to say it is better or worse than others.

[kenrexford]

I'll bite.

After the start, repeated:

1♦-1♥
1♠-2♣
2♦-2♠

A lot is known already. Unless this is bizarro world, Opener has 5-6♦/4♠, with fewer than three hearts. Responder presumably has 4+♥/4♠.

If Opener patterns out, we will presumably know a lot more about his shape. Maybe 2NT for 4225, 3♣ for 5135? Responder could then also offer a pattern description.

However, let's play with the cuebids.

TRUMP QUALITY RESOLVED BELOW GAME USUALLY.

Using my techniques, the strength of the top cards in spades will be resolved below 4NT easily. If Opener has two of the top three spades, he bypasses 2NT. One of the two will be able to say if he does or does not have the third top honor in that situation (bidding or bypassing 3♠ as a cue); if that person denies, the other will know whether the partnership does or does not have the third top spade. This will negative the need for a traditional RKCB one-fourth the time (only when all three have not been shown and only in that situation when the partner out of the loop asks questions).

If Opener has poor trumps, he cues 2NT. Someone will be able to cue or bypass 3♠ later to clear up much of the mystery. Thus, Opener might be able to show Jxxx or worse. Responder might be able to show two of the top three later.

PATTERN MAY RESOLVE ANYWAY

If opener has a stiff heart, not Q/K/A, he may well be able to show this anyway, by not cuebidding a heart honor and then later cuebidding a heart control.

SECONDARY FITS EXPLORED BETTER

In thinking about a spade slam, both partners will presumably be interested in partner's assistance for "my stuff." Cuebidding enhances Opener's ability to show heart cards, filling in Responder's holes, and Responder will be able to show diamond cards, filling in opener's holes. Or, denying the same, discouraging. Or, showing that your own suit is quality, for partner to then assess. What will be more interesting to Opener if he has AQ10xx in diamonds -- knowing whether responder has one, two, or three diamonds, or knowing if partner has the King? If Responder has AJxxx in hearts, will he prefer knowing about 0, 1, or 2 diamonds, or whether partner has the King and/or Queen?

PICTURE BIDS

With jumps available to both sides, some "pattern bids" will be possible even with immediate cues -- either sides jumps to describe a classic pattern. For example, if Opener has great diamonds, good clubs, and no top honors in hearts or clubs, Opener will be able to jump to 4♣ (chort club), 4♥ (short heart), or 4♦ (4225). Thus, some pattern bidding is available. Any non-jump will tailor what alternative auctions show.

SHORT SUMMARY:

I don't think that pattern+controls does it. Rather, I think good slam bidding is actually fit+controls. The difference between "pattern" and "fit" as to side suits is easy to explain.

If a side suit (non-trump) splits our way 5-1, 5-2, or 5-3, this tells us less about how many tricks can be taken than how many top honors we have. In a side suit, if you have AKJxx, which set would you rather have:

Q, Qx, or Qxx OR x, xx, xxx VERSUS
x or Q, xx or Qx, or xxx or Qxx?

I'd rather know whether partner has the Queen or not, rather than how many cards he has, in a side suit. This suit is not trumps, so I don't care about partner's length as much as his honor contribution. Tell me that first, please.

[kgr]

kenrexford, on Nov 14 2009, 07:07 PM, said:

I don't think that pattern+controls does it.  Rather, I think good slam bidding is actually fit+controls.

Is your control bidding at low level the same as at higher level; Do you also bid short controls?
E.g.: Can 3C in below sequence be a singleton, e.g singleton ♣Q (I guess that you would often jump to 4♣ with a small singleton)?
1D-1H
1S-2C
2D-2S
3C

[gwnn]

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...=23116&st=0&hl=

cheers phil

[jdonn]

Memorable thread. I see your posts on the topic haven't become any shorter Ken. So I still don't read them and I end up none the wiser.

[Ant590]

gwnn, on Nov 15 2009, 11:44 AM, said:

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...=23116&st=0&hl=

cheers phil 

Csaba, are you just really good at using the search function, or do you keep a record of interesting threads somewhere?

If the latter, care to share?

[kenrexford]

That old post was good.

I'd add in as required reading the following:

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho..."strangely empathetic"&st=30

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...46&hl="the voice of reason"&st=30

Note the parts where Fred was starting to think my way a lot more and where jdonn admitted that I am the VOICE OF REASON.

I think these speak for themselves. LOL

[gwnn]

I'm just relatively good at searching and have a lot of spare time.

the best I could do to explain how I do it was this:
http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...ndpost&p=374173

[Vilgan]

patterning out early makes sense to me.

One question:

What is standard treatment if short suit is a stiff A? What if it is a stiff K?

I'd probably not mention shortness there with that the case (too often partner now devalues their holding) but no clue if that's standard.

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Nov 15 2009, 08:39 AM, said:

That old post was good.

I'd add in as required reading the following:

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho..."strangely empathetic"&st=30

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...46&hl="the voice of reason"&st=30

Note the parts where Fred was starting to think my way a lot more and where jdonn admitted that I am the VOICE OF REASON.

I think these speak for themselves. LOL

That had nothing to do with cuebidding or showing shape after 2/1 auctions. You were indeed the voice of reason in that thread (at least the part I quoted).

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on Nov 15 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Nov 15 2009, 08:39 AM, said:

That old post was good.

I'd add in as required reading the following:

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho..."strangely empathetic"&st=30

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...46&hl="the voice of reason"&st=30

Note the parts where Fred was starting to think my way a lot more and where jdonn admitted that I am the VOICE OF REASON.

I think these speak for themselves.  LOL

That had nothing to do with cuebidding or showing shape after 2/1 auctions. You were indeed the voice of reason in that thread (at least the part I quoted).

Oh, it's not remotely on point. Not denying that. I just liked reminding you that I was once sane for a single day. LOL

[Jlall]

gwnn, on Nov 15 2009, 05:44 AM, said:

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...=23116&st=0&hl=

cheers phil

Lmao I didn't even remember the thread when Phil referenced it...thought he was just joking. Epic. Too bad we don't have any more threads like this anymore

[Jlall]

kenrexford, on Nov 15 2009, 08:39 AM, said:

That old post was good.

I'd add in as required reading the following:

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho..."strangely empathetic"&st=30

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...46&hl="the voice of reason"&st=30

Note the parts where Fred was starting to think my way a lot more and where jdonn admitted that I am the VOICE OF REASON.

I think these speak for themselves. LOL

lol... I remember fighting with you so much and thinking you were such a moron and then somehow I became part of the kenrexford fan club Oo