[peachy]

dburn, on Apr 29 2010, 10:54 PM, said:

♠AKJxx  ♥x  ♦Qx  ♣QJ10xx

After 1♠-2♦, should you bid 2♠ or 3♣?

Addendum: let me rephrase that, since I cannot bear the smartass answer "yes, you should bid 2♠ or 3♣." Which of 2♠ and 3♣ should you bid?

I bid 2S, which is the default minimum in my methods when one unbid suit is not stopped. New suit on the three level shows a better hand than this. Even if default minimum was agreed as 2NT, I would still bid 2S for lack of better bid - 2NT would be misleading on shape and 3C misleading on general strength.

[Echognome]

Playing 2♣/1M shows GF Balanced or Clubs (so that 2♦ shows 5+) I bid 3♦.

Playing a version of 2/1 where 2♦ shows 4+ and a 2M rebid is catch-all, I bid 2♠.

Playing a version of 2/1 where 2♦ shows 4+ and a 2M rebid shows 6+, I bid 3♣.

There are so many different flavors of 2/1, I think it's difficult to answer the question without being more constrained by your particular system.

[Codo]

3 ♣ looked obvious as long as you have no agreement that 2 ♣ from partner had been artifical and 2 ♦ shows 5.
I raise partners diamonds later.

[the hog]

3C for me. I have the extras necessary to bd 3C. I also don't understand 2S.

[Free]

If you don't have much agreements on 2/1s, then I'd bid 3♣ which is what I have: extra's and 4+♣...

[Mbodell]

To me this is a 3♣ bid. I'd rather be longer in clubs or stronger to do this, but I'm upgrading my hand after hearing partners call and even before the upgrade I was on the border of strong enough to make the 3 level bid.

[Poky]

2♠ is the only normal rebid. So, after 2NT, i can bid 3♦ and pull subsequent 3NT to 4♣ showing a strongish 5134 hand. Just a perfect description of my hand.

[Codo]

Poky, on Apr 30 2010, 07:36 PM, said:

2♠ is the only normal rebid. So, after 2NT, i can bid 3♦ and pull subsequent 3NT to 4♣ showing a strongish 5134 hand. Just a perfect description of my hand.

besides the fact the for nobody and his dog 2 ♠ followed by 3 ♦ is showing a strong hand...

[jjbrr]

3♣

[bluecalm]

Quote

3C. Hand is strong enough for this. In my methods which do not include artificial 2C or other gadgets (assumedly OP would have said if they had such methods, so they don't either), 2D does not promise five card suit so raising diamonds with only 3-card support is premature.

I guess it depends where you live. Bidding 2♦ with 4 diamonds where I live is considered basically a semi psych.
Also just because something is "amateur standard" doesn't mean it makes much sense (I am yet to see world class pair bidding 2/1 with 4carder and I saw quite a few hands). Here bidding 2♦ violates basic bidding principles imo (staying low, not having same hand in 2 different bids (gf balanced in both 2♣ and 2♦) and exchanging information which is not needed but benefit the opponents).

Anyway, the problem with 3♣ is that we will often hear 3NT as partner will bid that with ♥ stopper. After that we will often miss good slam imo, unless you plan to bid 4♦ afte 3NT but that on the other hand will often get us too high.

[jdonn]

3♣. It works best when partner bids 3NT and next I get to bid 4♦. It may work a bit worse other times but something inside me will still feel pretty good about bidding my 5 card suit, then my 4 card suit, then my 3 card suit.

[hanp]

Having the diamond queen and such strong spades, I think it will be rare that 6C will be better than 6D. However, starting with 3C will often paint such a better picture of my hand that I prefer it anyway.

I don't understand 2S at all.

[Jlall]

hanp, on Apr 30 2010, 10:44 AM, said:

I don't understand 2S at all.

If 3C shows 5-5 and 3D shows 4 diamonds, then 2S is automatic. I think both of those agreements are good ones to have.

I don't know about you but I try to avoid 1S p 2D p 3C at all costs, especially since we're in the wild wild west where 2D can be based on 2443. This is just a horrendous start to the auction and pretty lol to me when both minors are/can be based on 4 card suits.

If 2D were always based on 5 I wouldn't mind 3D on this particular hand since we have such a great hand for a diamond slam, and even if partner has 3 spades that's probably where we want to be. I'm sure you all have your auction for getting back to diamonds after 1S p 2D p 3C p 3S but I wish you luck. Still lying about a 4th trump is a pretty major lie.

I can see why 1S...3C...4D is appealing and that is perfect if partner bids 3N (as long as 3C didn't show 5!), on the other hand 1S-2D-2S-2N-3D-3N-4C also gets the job done pretty nicely in that regard.

[peachy]

bluecalm, on Apr 30 2010, 10:14 AM, said:

Quote

3C. Hand is strong enough for this. In my methods which do not include artificial 2C or other gadgets (assumedly OP would have said if they had such methods, so they don't either), 2D does not promise five card suit so raising diamonds with only 3-card support is premature.

I guess it depends where you live. Bidding 2♦ with 4 diamonds where I live is considered basically a semi psych.
Also just because something is "amateur standard" doesn't mean it makes much sense (I am yet to see world class pair bidding 2/1 with 4carder and I saw quite a few hands).

It does depend where you live.
It does not bother me at all when someone like you calls the common Western US style "amateur standard".

[jdonn]

I don't like raising diamonds directly not only because a 4-4 club fit might be better but because we could just have a longer club fit, like partner is 5-5 in the minors. x Ax Kxxxx KQxxx?

[bid_em_up]

dburn, on Apr 30 2010, 12:10 AM, said:

MarkDean, on Apr 29 2010, 10:58 PM, said:

I would bid 3♣.  If partner bids anything but 3NT, I will bid 4♦ and think I am well placed.  If partner bids 3NT...well, let's hope partner does not do that to me.

Very well. Partner bids 3♥, and you bid a "well-placed" 4♦. This was the sequence actually followed at the table, but I was not feeling quite as smug about it as I might have done. For example, might I not bid the same way with:

♠AKxxx ♥xx ♦Qx ♣AKxx?

Wouldn't this hand bid 3♣ over 2♦?

[j0i]

I bid 3♣ as 2♦ doesn't promise 5 dimonds

[FrancesHinden]

bluecalm, on Apr 30 2010, 04:14 PM, said:

(I am yet to see world class pair bidding 2/1 with 4carder and I saw quite a few hands).

I don't think you are watching the right players.
I don't know who dburn was playing with here, but he's certainly a world class player e.g. I bet he has more Olympiad medals than you do.

Quote

You, South, open 1♠ and partner bids 2♦, game-forcing. What call do you make?

Well personally, I bid 2♥ relay. If partner asks with 2♠, I bid 3♣ showing exactly 5-4; over his next call (depending what it is) I will bid 4♦ showing 5134 with extra values. If he doesn't relay I will know a lot about his hand, but it will depend what he does do (e.g. if he bids 2NT showing 3-card spade support I'll probably splinter with 4H, if he bids 3C showing 5-5 or 6-5 or indeed 3D showing a self-supporting suit I'm probably worth a simple 4H kickback over either).

But I suspect you don't mean what call would I make, rather what call would I make in your shoes. And that is 3♣, followed by 4♦ over 3H or 3S. Over 3NT by partner I'm tempted to pass, assuming that 3♣ has already shown extra values. And yes, it's possible I've got AKxxx xx Qx AKxx for this sequence, but it still seems the best I can do.

[whereagles]

3♣ here, which should show extras IMO.

[junyi_zhu]

dburn, on Apr 30 2010, 02:23 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

You, South, open 1♠ and partner bids 2♦, game-forcing. What call do you make?

I'd bid 3C, the most natural bid available. If partner rebids 3D, you can probably RKC IMO. If partner bids 3S, you should make quite a few slam tries. If partner bid 3NT, you can bid 4D to show your pattern and slam interest. So you are well prepared IMO. When 3C shows both your pattern and strength, I don't see any reasons not to bid it. A natural bid which also narrows down your strength range is the reason we play a quite natural system, instead of relays systems.