[dkharty]

1. 1♠ - (4♥) - 5NT

2. 1♠ - (4♥) - 6♥

[Hanoi5]

1. Pick up a slam
2. Pick up a grand slam (or 6♠?)

[aguahombre]

Both auctions mean the same thing. They mean I am getting a bad result.

[the hog]

dkharty, on Jun 20 2010, 09:18 AM, said:

1. 1♠ - (4♥) - 5NT

2. 1♠ - (4♥) - 6♥

The first asks for good trumps for the grand: bid 7 with 2 of the top 3 honours.
Lol at "pick a slam". Where, what, how?
The second shows a H void, S support and is an invitation to 7.

[Fluffy]

rahter that ask for good trumps it normally asks to answer 6♣ with no honnor, 6♦ with 1, 6♥ with 2, 6♠ with 3.... some versions put extra lenght into the equation.

[pooltuna]

aguahombre, on Jun 19 2010, 09:46 PM, said:

Both auctions mean the same thing. They mean I am getting a bad result.

now try to figure out a logical reason for a what call to make

IMO the first is pick a slam and the second is Josephine.

[ONEferBRID]

pooltuna, on Jun 20 2010, 08:13 AM, said:

aguahombre, on Jun 19 2010, 09:46 PM, said:

Both auctions mean the same thing. They mean I am getting a bad result.

now try to figure out a logical reason for a what call to make

IMO the first is pick a slam and the second is Josephine.

1) What "choice" of slams ? ( I guess you mean 6S or 6NT ).
To me, 5NT is a GSF ( Josephine if you will ) .

2) I have no earthly idea.
Does the answer lie in what 5♥! would have meant ?
If 5♥! = 1st Rnd Ctrl in support of ♠, then there would have been
no need for 6♥! to show that.
Maybe 6♥! "asks" .... ie it is a GSF ONLY if partner also has 1st Rnd Ctrl of Hts ?
[ I really don't know... What would 4NT have meant ? RKC ? ] .

[dake50]

As ONEferBRID,

What was available: 4N,5H,etc?
So I know that wasn't chosen = that's not this bid.

Partner off in space = he thinks a guess at grand/no grand
is as good as any talking could get --assume he's sane.

[gwnn]

The_Hog, on Jun 20 2010, 07:32 AM, said:

Lol at "pick a slam". Where, what, how?

At the bridge table.
A slam.
By examining your hand. If you have a 4 card minor, bid it, if you have a 6+ card spade suit, rebid it, if you have nothing interesting, curse at partner.

[dkharty]

The_Hog, on Jun 20 2010, 02:32 AM, said:

dkharty, on Jun 20 2010, 09:18 AM, said:

1.  1♠ - (4♥) - 5NT

2.  1♠ - (4♥) - 6♥

The first asks for good trumps for the grand: bid 7 with 2 of the top 3 honours.
Lol at "pick a slam". Where, what, how?
The second shows a H void, S support and is an invitation to 7.

This is what I thought as well, but the person who posed the question to me insisted that the "only logical meaning" of 6H was GSF, so 5NT was now pick-a-minor slam, something like Kx -- AKJTx AJTxxx I guess. Is this from outer space?

[ONEferBRID]

dake50, on Jun 20 2010, 09:54 AM, said:

As ONEferBRID,

What was available: 4N,5H,etc?
So I know that wasn't chosen = that's not this bid.

Partner off in space = he thinks a guess at grand/no grand
is as good as any talking could get --assume he's sane.

Another bid NOT made was 5♠! asking for a ♥ Ctrl ( either 1st or 2nd ) for a small slam .

[inquiry]

5NT is grand slam force thingee... looking for spade honors.

The meaning of 6H is quite different from the meaning of 5H. Many play 5H as showing heart control. I think this is wrong. 5H has to be saved for a general slam try, agreeing spades. In general it will have a heart control for the simple reason that 5S demands slam if opener has a heart control, but in practice if does not show.

If 5H is a general slam try, one can use it with a grand slam try type hand, and if partner bids 6S, you can bid 7S and if partner bids 5S you can correct to 6S. So 6H can not be general grand slam try based on stregnth. Nor can it be Josephine, as 5NT when spades are trumps allows room to show the queen as well as the A, K or AK.

So that leaves 6H to be only one of a very few choices. First, Demanding grand slam with first round heart control (and thus showing second round heart control of own). Something with heart Kx(x) and lots of tricks with no fear of spades. That seems to rare to be real choice. The second is as essentially a transfer to 6S with good defense if the opponents take a save in 7H's (that is demanding opener not to take the push to 7S). That too seems too rare to be worth it. So I go with the third option, inviting opener to pick between 6NT and 6S, thus showing a source of tricks and a heart stopper... that is replacing the normal "pick a slam" meaning of 5NT. That could be useful at matchpoints. It is either that, or a "transfer the blame auction" when openers next bid (guess?) turns out to be wrong.

[Phil]

dkharty, on Jun 20 2010, 10:45 AM, said:

the "only logical meaning" of 6H was GSF, so 5NT was now pick-a-minor slam, something like Kx -- AKJTx AJTxxx I guess. Is this from outer space?

This is how I would interpret 5N and 6♥.

[jdonn]

5NT is definitely pick a minor suit slam. How else does one get partner's input when one has both minors! GSF is utterly useless, you virtually never get the right hand for it. You get hands where you need partner's help in choosing a slam all the time.

6♥ I have no idea, I suppose GSF is the only thing that makes any sense at all.

[gnasher]

jdonn, on Jun 20 2010, 05:25 PM, said:

5NT is definitely pick a minor suit slam. How else does one get partner's input when one has both minors!

I could bid 4NT for the minors and then raise (or make a grand slam try). If you play 4NT as Keycard then you're probably right.

[aguahombre]

Since whatever I bid over 4H (except 4s) suggests good strength, I don't think I want to give up 4NT RKC. Therefore Pick and GSF for OP's questions seem as good as any. Thanks to this thread it is now what we will do.

[hanp]

Since whatever I bid over 4H (except 4s) suggests good strength

How does that help you to bid a gameforcing hand with both minors if you play 4NT as RKC?

[aguahombre]

hanp, on Jun 20 2010, 11:52 AM, said:

Since whatever I bid over 4H (except 4s) suggests good strength

How does that help you to bid a gameforcing hand with both minors if you play 4NT as RKC?

It doesn't. I just choose not to try to thread that needle and guess it makes exactly 5m. Gotta give up something, and choose to give up the minor 2-suiter which is good enough for game, maybe, if there is a fit --but not for slam.

[hanp]

That argument is bad even when it is used for 2NT, it is even worse here. Since when is bidding game threading a needle? With x x KJxxxx AQJxx it really sucks if you can't bid 4NT. You won't always make game but sometimes they'll make 4H, you can't pass, you certainly can't go to slam and bidding 5D is ugly.

[CSGibson]

hanp, on Jun 20 2010, 10:52 AM, said:

Since whatever I bid over 4H (except 4s) suggests good strength

How does that help you to bid a gameforcing hand with both minors if you play 4NT as RKC?

does no one play a negative double for that hand?