[bluejak]

Opening lead, ♠2, dummy sleepily furnishes ♠K, next player furnishes the ♠A, declarer says "Where's the dummy?"

[Zelandakh]

I am not a TD but it seems that dummy has illegally suggested a card to be played and placed it in the played position (45DF). So the SA may be withdrawn if declarer changes dummy's play and is not a penalty card. I know I am missing something because of the source...

[axman]

 bluejak, on 2011-July-27, 05:58, said:

Opening lead, ♠2, dummy sleepily furnishes ♠K, next player furnishes the ♠A, declarer says "Where's the dummy?"

THere are two provisions of law that apply:

L45C4. (a) A card must be played if a player names or otherwise designates it as the card he proposes to play.

Dummy has designated [while illegal to do so, he has done so] the SK as if he proposed to play it. It must be played.

L45D. Card Misplayed by Dummy

If dummy places in the played position a card that declarer did not name, the card must be withdrawn if attention is drawn to it before each side has played to the next trick, and a defender may withdraw and return to his hand a card played after the error but before attention was drawn to it; if declarer’s RHO changes his play, declarer may withdraw a card he had subsequently played to that trick. (See Law 16D.)

Declarer did not name the card and attention was drawn before both sides played to the next trick. The SK must be withdrawn, and 3rd hand may withdraw his SA. L16D ramifications exist.

Logically, 45C4a provisisons are enforced first and then 45D is enforced. Dummy has earned a PP.

[gordontd]

 axman, on 2011-July-27, 08:53, said:

THere are two provisions of law that apply:

L45C4. (a) A card must be played if a player names or otherwise designates it as the card he proposes to play.

Dummy has designated (while illegal to do so, he has done so) the SK as if he proposed to play it. It must be played.

So I can name an opponent's card at the one I propose to play, and he has to play it? I don't think so.

[axman]

 gordontd, on 2011-July-27, 09:00, said:

So I can name an opponent's card at the one I propose to play, and he has to play it? I don't think so.

Let no lack of antecedent be left unturned. I was reciting law that someone else wrote [ foolishly, imo].

As for your discourse, the law specifies that the card must be played, it does not specifiy by whom. Certainly the law provides [except for dummy's partner] no player is permitted to touch another's cards so, as you say, I should think such other player holding the card must play [ostensibly OOT] the card. I'm at a loss for the case where the card had previously been played.

[blackshoe]

Please reserve this kind of sophistry for blml. Let's try to be practical here.

45D applies. 45C4a is not relevant. If dummy rates a PP, it's under 43A1c: "dummy must not participate in the play" (My emphasis).

[pran]

 blackshoe, on 2011-July-27, 12:43, said:

Please reserve this kind of sophistry for blml. Let's try to be practical here.

45D applies. 45C4a is not relevant. If dummy rates a PP, it's under 43A1c: "dummy must not participate in the play" (My emphasis).

Is this some kind of a quiz? Of course Law 45D is the one and only law that applies on the "play" from Dummy and the subsequent play from RHO.

However, TD might decide to apply PP for violations of Laws 41D, 43A1c, 45B and possibly even other laws. I wouldn't care, and normally I would not impose any PP (other than a warning to Dummy to be more attentive in the future).

[bluejak]

Are we sure dummy has played a card?

[blackshoe]

I read "dummy sleepily furnishes ♠K" as "dummy sleepily places the ♠K in the played position". If you meant something else, pray tell us what.

Quote

Law 45D: If dummy places in the played position a card that declarer did not name, the card must be withdrawn if attention is drawn to it before each side has played to the next trick, and a defender may withdraw and return to his hand a card played after the error but before attention was drawn to it. if declarer’s RHO changes his play, declarer may withdraw a card he had subsequently played to that trick (see Law 16D).

"If dummy places in the played position" obviates any need to discuss or consider whether he "played" the card.

[iviehoff]

 blackshoe, on 2011-July-27, 21:37, said:

I read "dummy sleepily furnishes ♠K" as "dummy sleepily places the ♠K in the played position". If you meant something else, pray tell us what.

Clearly Bluejak intended us to decide whether it had been played or not, and thus used a completely different word to avoid any presumption.

The key question here is whether dummy is dummy or not, having not yet spread his cards on the table. Law 41A and 41B refer to "presumed declarer" and "presumed dummy", because if a defender leads out of turn they have the right to exchange roles. But once the correct defender has led, presumed dummy irrevocably becomes dummy, and at 41C and 41D it is evident that dummy is already dummy before spreading his cards on the table, because those laws instruct "dummy" to spread his cards.

So he is dummy already, immediately after the opening lead is faced, even without spreading his cards yet, and (45B) his cards can (regularly) only be played upon instruction from declarer. Therefore dummy's furnishing of a card does not make it a played card, at least not immediately, it is irregularly placing it in the played position. Cards irregularly placed in the played position by dummy become played cards only if no one draws attention to it sufficiently early (each side has played to the next trick, 45D), but it is evident that in this case that attention has been drawn in very good time.

So 45D applies.

[pran]

 bluejak, on 2011-July-27, 17:39, said:

Are we sure dummy has played a card?

Your description in OP is clearly that of a card being played.

[iviehoff]

 pran, on 2011-July-28, 02:20, said:

Your description in OP is clearly that of a card being played.

I presume you mean it matches the description of a card being played from a hand in Law 45A. But Law 45A does not apply to dummy. It does not match the description of a card being played from dummy in Law 45B. That is why it is crucial to decide whether dummy is dummy yet, not yet having spread his hand. Above, I concluded he is dummy (and no longer presumed dummy) from the moment the correct defender faces his lead. We can therefore say that it does match the description of a card misplayed by dummy in Law 45D, since this law does not depend upon dummy's hand being spread.

[shyams]

IMHO, the ♠A should be deemed a played card (played out of turn?). So, declarer should ask dummy to put all his 13 cards down and then can choose to play any spade but the ♠A is deemed to be played.

IMHO, Law 45D does not apply because the card put down by dummy was not a played card (maybe dummy thought he was participating in a game where all 4 players play their own cards). In any case, after dummy has put 1 of his 13 cards down, if the 3rd player plays, he/she does so in haste.

Whether dummy deserves a PP for what happened is another matter. I will leave that part of the discussion to the TDs

[pran]

 iviehoff, on 2011-July-28, 03:43, said:

I presume you mean it matches the description of a card being played from a hand in Law 45A. But Law 45A does not apply to dummy. It does not match the description of a card being played from dummy in Law 45B. That is why it is crucial to decide whether dummy is dummy yet, not yet having spread his hand. Above, I concluded he is dummy (and no longer presumed dummy) from the moment the correct defender faces his lead. We can therefore say that it does match the description of a card misplayed by dummy in Law 45D, since this law does not depend upon dummy's hand being spread.

No question!
Presumed Dummy becomes Dummy at the very moment the opening lead has been faced by the correct defender. You have that correct, just read the definitions if you have not already done so.

So whether or not this was intended as a quiz the correct answer is Law 45D and nothing else. I still don't understand why OP was ever made.

[pooltuna]

 bluejak, on 2011-July-27, 17:39, said:

Are we sure dummy has played a card?

I take it this is a hint that dummy should ask his partner to table his cards so he can choose one to play

[blackshoe]

 shyams, on 2011-July-28, 06:10, said:

IMHO, the ♠A should be deemed a played card (played out of turn?). So, declarer should ask dummy to put all his 13 cards down and then can choose to play any spade but the ♠A is deemed to be played.

IMHO, Law 45D does not apply because the card put down by dummy was not a played card (maybe dummy thought he was participating in a game where all 4 players play their own cards). In any case, after dummy has put 1 of his 13 cards down, if the 3rd player plays, he/she does so in haste.

Whether dummy deserves a PP for what happened is another matter. I will leave that part of the discussion to the TDs

Your reading of the laws is flawed. 45D speaks not of "played" cards, but of cards "placed in the played position".

[bluejak]

 pran, on 2011-July-28, 02:20, said:

Your description in OP is clearly that of a card being played.

Quote

LAW 45: CARD PLAYED

B. Play of Card from Dummy
Declarer plays a card from dummy by naming the card, after which dummy picks up the card and faces it on the table. In playing from dummy’s hand declarer may, if necessary, pick up the desired card himself.

My description did not match that in any way.

[iviehoff]

So far we have only been looking at the easy bit of this little problem. It is after L45D has been applied that the difficult problem comes, assuming there is a plausible choice of plays from dummy. Declarer has two bits of UI, (1) that partner is suggesting he should play the K and (2) that the A is sitting over the K (L16D). So what can he legally choose to avoid the risk of an adjustment? Probably neither. Probably both playing the K and not playing the K are suggested by the UI, so any successful play by declarer at trick 1 is probably adjustable against if after the fact the defence don't like it. I can even imagine scenarios for an adjustment even when declarer chooses an inferior option at trick 1: if the defence manages to mess it up badly enough that they can say that they actually they have been damaged relative to the expected result if declarer had chosen the other option, since then they wouldn't have been placed in the position of the possiblity of making that error.

[pran]

 bluejak, on 2011-July-28, 08:24, said:

Quote

LAW 45: CARD PLAYED

B. Play of Card from Dummy
Declarer plays a card from dummy by naming the card, after which dummy picks up the card and faces it on the table. In playing from dummy’s hand declarer may, if necessary, pick up the desired card himself.

My description did not match that in any way.

Do me the favour of quoting correctly. I never referred to Law 45B.

Now please tell me (and the audience) why Law 45D is not the relevant law (and in fact the only relevant law)

[bluejak]

Do me the favour of quoting correctly. I never referred to Law 45D.

I know you did not refer to Law 45B, but since you were talking about a card being played from dummy, Law 45B applies.